80 thoughts on “The Relief Society might have handled it better…”

1. New Post: The Relief Society might have handled it better…: BYU freshman, Madeline MacDonald, was… https://t.co/Oc35VEPSAf #LDS #Mormon

2. TheMillennialStar: The Relief Society might have handled it better… https://t.co/5vgbLD6AnI #lds #mormon

3. Meg Stout,

   In your research have you seen when women started confessing (year), to whom (RS, or Bishop, etc), and what sins had to be confessed? There doesn’t seem to be any scholarship on the history of ‘confession’ as perceived and practiced by Mormons. What was the process like?

4. It still boggles my mind that the police officer who delivered a copy of the actual police file to the BYU Honor Code Office has NOT been criminally charged (Note: He is not one of the investigating officers on the case, he is a friend of the man accused of rape and obtained the file even though he is not in any way connected with the investgation).

   The prosecuting attorney in the rape case has explained to BYU that it is illegal for them to have the police file and has advised them to 1) return it, and 2) not use any of the information contained in it; but BYU has refused to return it. Further, in spite of the prosecutor begging them to drop the Honor Code investigation BYU is forging full speed ahead with it.

   SMH Sometimes I’m embarrassed BYU even exists.

5. @ JSH: I wonder if the police officer who criminally provided the police report to BYU Honor Code office was one of those who tasered my brother, resulting in debilitating weakness that will eventually leave him bedridden en route to a hastened demise. I did mention institutional stupidity, no? They dragged that one out in the courts for years and ended on a note that leaves my brother in legal limbo, unable to request the documents that would prove why the police administered damaging force.

   I didn’t know the additional details, since I live outside Utah and was only getting high level summaries. It seems that Ms. MacDonald might be well advised to bring criminal charges against her assailant and the assailants “helpful” police officer friend. Everyone else is in line to be sued, it seems. At least, if what you represent is the actual situation, that is what I would be advising my daughter to do. All in love and whatnot, but some things need to be changed. Not sure the PR blitz is helping, but I’m not the one who got messed with.

6. If you are going to drop a bomb about BY seeking out an extra-marital affair before he was told about polygamy, I think it would be nice to get a bit more of a thorough footnote rather than just a link to your book. I’ve never heard this accusation before, and it surprises me.

7. Hi M. Miles,

   One of the hallmarks of the 1842 interviews was the discretion with which everything was handled. Joseph leaned on the side of allowing those who had erred to have space in privacy to repent. Bennett was exposed in 1842 (that didn’t go well, speaking of PR). Then Law, Cowles, Higbee, and others were exposed in 1844 to varying degrees. Chauncey got the most concentrated blast of negative PR. But since Joseph died anyway, it doesn’t seem Brigham and the other apostles had the stomach for pursuing what ought to have been their legal rights.

   Joseph and Emma arranged for individuals suspected of inappropriate behavior to be confronted. We know Joseph asked to talk to some individuals directly. If the woman allowed him to say something, he would usually broach the issue of Celestial Marriage. Many of the women who left reports shut him down at that point (Lucy Walker, Sarah Kimball).

   If the woman wouldn’t talk with him, he would ask if he could give them a letter, provided they promised to burn it. Emily Partridge refused to accept the letter. Nancy Rigdon (it appears) didn’t burn the thing.

   If the woman refused an interview and the letter, Joseph or Emma sent in one of the Relief Society ladies. We know of Mrs. Durfee going in after the Partridge girls. Nancy Marinda Pratt went in after Nancy Rigdon. I think it is clear that Sarah Cleveland went in after Eliza Snow. We have the Relief Society minutes indicating various members of the RS went after Clarissa Marvel or Lucy Ann Munjar, reporting back obliquely regarding the outcome.

   If the woman was believed to be in error and wouldn’t repent, she was cut off from the Relief Society. I don’t recall off hand if any of the women were cut off from the Church, other than Sarah Pratt.

   It is less clear what occurred with the men Joseph confronted. I think the first Joseph knew about the wrongful teachings was when Heber approached Joseph to ask permission to make the Pitkin spinsters his. Joseph forbade Heber. We see him excommunicating various men, and we see the High Council getting involved in Mary 1842. I can only think of two cases in 1842 where the man was publicly exposed as being cut off: Benjamin Winchester and Dr. John C. Bennett.

   Returning to the discretion theme, that is why no one even seems to be aware of what occurred in 1842. They’ve been so busy looking for a libidinous Joseph that they’ve missed the subtle clues regarding the scandal, and have been unable to parse the not subtle testimony of those hauled before the High Council in late May.

8. Meg,

   Martha Brotherton? Not even her own sister believed her story and many apostles signed affidavits that she was a liar. Don’t most LDS historians reject the Sangamo Journal documents?

9. Hi Nate,

   You weren’t paying attention when I laid the mother bomb, back in October 2015:

   Give Brigham Young a Break

   M* blew up, and Brian Hales honored me with a 14 page detailed rebuttal. However I think Brian got most of that rebuttal wrong.

   Brian and Laura Hales scolding me for dragging Brigham and others through the mud

   My response to Brian and Laura Hales

10. Is the defendant found guilty already or is the case pretty nefarious that it’s a foregone conclusion?

    If there is no verdict why the rush to judgement? Both from you all and BYU.

11. I’m more confused here after googling the case. I don’t know all the details out there, and it’s a sensitive issue, but reading the AP article I see it says she first reported a rape to the “Title IX office”. Am I reading that right?

    I am familiar with the concept of Title IX but can any normal student actually tell me where that office is and why they’d report a sexual crime there rather than to the police? Call 911 isn’t engrained in everyone’s head, but make a title IX appointment is?

    Or did the AP report get it wrong?

    I’m all for being concerned about misguided honor code office policies, but something seems off.

    If he’s been found guilty I retract. But public accusation without even charges or evidence is wrong to just accept that. Wrong wrong wrong.

12. It’s sexual assault awareness month, and the BYU title nine page has a big glossy set of pictures explaining how you should come to their office if you suspect somebody has been sexually assaulted.

    Therefore it appears that Ms. McDonald acted in accordance with the best information that would’ve been available to her. The school itself urged victims of sexual assault to go to the title IX office, not to dial 911 or report to the police.

13. Meg, that’s quite a stretch to say the school said come here first don’t call police.

    In fact they say in the training you pointed me to after googling their site to get medical help first even days afterwards.
    http://training.titleix.byu.edu/victim-5.html

    I think the referral to the hospital is obviously a good suggestion, and usually that’s through 911, but I guess if in a date rape situation the person was not physically injured to the point of needing an ambulance, their own trip directly to the hospital makes sense.

    In general, I can’t help but think title IX reporting is the result of misguided governmental edicts and to many people wanting to get involved. If 911, police, hospitals, are not handling the cases right or sensitively, we have every duty to seek to change the way they handle them, not pass of responsibility to an internal office of the school.

    Someone is assaulted. There is a crime and an injury.

    As a society at must instill the idea that you should call the doctors or police. 911 would be the answer here.

    We need to help people feel safe and normal calling 911, not telling them is normal to not do call, but go through some other office for advice instead.

    If people don’t feel safe calling 911, going to the doctor or the police, for crying out loud, why are we complaining about BYU?! Why should BYU rise to a standard we don’t expect of the medical institution or police? Reform the medical and police institution’s that are so supposed to protect us if they are failing, not expect all the university’s and schools to now handle it better.

    I’m not saying BYU shouldn’t have policies to take action when something happens, but the instincts we teach should always always always be call 911. From there the appropriate procedure can be to refer to a hospital and/or police if it’s asked for.

    So BYU is right to say seek medical help.

    I realize there can be shame in coming out with this for weeks or longer. All the more reason not to hedge on this but teach loudly and clearly, call 911. Teach it now. Don’t confuse the issue. The first step should start with 911 and -there- the options can be expanded on. The people this happens to should know they’re isn’t anything complicated or scary, etc. Call 911.

    From there the appropriate course of action can flow.

14. The aspect of this that is making side columns around the nation isn’t Title IX versus 911. It is the allegation that BYU is processing a rape victim for possible honor code violation.

    Now, some of the things that happen when a person later claims rape are things that might, in isolation, be honor code violations. But the a prior initiation of an investigation is the thing that is rubbing people wrong. It resonates with those high schools who are making girl’s outfits the penalized matter, rather than teaching men to keep their hands to themselves.

    It would be as though a military individual were subjected to court martial if they were to come forward with a report that they’d been assaulted. On the one hand, it could well be that the final truth of the interaction requires that the “victim” face court martial. But to presume that is the case up front is the offensive bit.

15. Hi Meg,
    Thanks for trying to answer. I’m not curious about these incidents per se–I mean general protocol. Now both men and women go to their bishop to confess. What was the procedure then? If anyone transgressed, was there a written procedure? Was it different for men and women? FREX, did women talk to Emma? If there was no formal procedure and everything was unscripted, when did it become so?

16. I would say that Nauvoo 1842 was very different because Joseph and Emma were actively seeking to root out the evil, where a modern Bishop is waiting for the penitent to come to him.

    From Sarah’s Holmes’ record, we get a picture of Emma and Eliza out in the evenings, working with the women. The Relief Society minutes for 1842 give additional detail regarding the assignments of women to investigate.

    Relief Society prior to WWI was a much more activist organization. I remember happening across a relative who had died in the early 1900s and the Relief Society in her town drew up a resolution to remember her, which they presented to her bereaved husband.

    It was a different time.

17. In the world and in the church a woman can consent all the way up to the instant of the act and say “no” and she can legitimately allege rape if he refuses to stop.

    He should indeed be punished including by the law. It really is her right to say no and even once the act commences she can say stop and he must stop,

    But if she committed an honor code violation between her first yes and her final no does the no exonerate her totally?

    We have a tradition of pandering to women (just watch Women’s Conference) so expect that that this story will end with complete exoneration.

18. in the article I read, the student was barred from attending classes by the Honor Code office because she did not go to the Honor Code office to be interviewed/investigated. She did not go along with the Honor Code investigation on advice of her lawyer, which sounds right.

    According to the article, BYU then prevented her from dropping her classes, which cause her to receive permanent bad grades, which are now part of her permanent transcript.

    The article says BYU refused to return the case file to the police, which the prosecutor said should never have been given to BYU in the first place.

    I hope some GAs step in and get in front of this quickly. Both the church’s PR dept and the church’s legal dept are too savvy to let this continue. The people at the BYU Honor code office are obviosly NOT savvy in terms of PR nor legal matters.

    I hope that cop and some people in the Honor Code office lose their jobs.

19. “But to presume that is the case up front is the offensive bit.”

    I am not sure if the details of this case and I can only place my trust that the honor code office doesn’t investigate rape like that. Outrage over issues that we lack knowledge on is problematic.

    But you’re quote above makes its own presumption. As well as the earlier presumption of calling the guy a creep. Has he been found guilty or did you just make the offense of presuming the case up front?

    Is it possible he confessed to the situation, then she said it was rape? Is it possible through this mess, we are creating a reporting decision making process that says date rapists should immediately confess with contrition to the honor code office to lay the groundwork for their own defense?

    Oh, if she were to call 911 immediately, that would obviously be the counter defense that, no this was unwanted which is why I sought help immediately. So… Once again call 911.

    Now, what about consensual regretted sex? I assume most non martial sex has feelings of regret until a person becomes beyond feeling so to speak. At the very least you’d expect this to be the case in nearly 100% of the cases at BYU. Even though it’s certainly marginal compared to actual rape, surely there are some false cries of wolf. And yet this guy or others is a creep in your eyes without conviction or personal knowledge of the situation.

    It’s tragic if she was raped, and it’s equally tragic if he’s being maligned. I do tend to agree with the presumption of guilt like you do as an instinct, but i feel we have a duty to push back on that instinct in the name of due process. Rape accusations should not throw out the way the justice system works.

    Just because a small percentage of accusations aren’t legitimate doesn’t mean we should assume they all are.

    This whole issue about the honor code office is a distraction from getting people real help and proper education. So this person has gone to title IX office and a lawyer to battle BYU, but not the police or hospital? Is that the case?

    If she was raped, the correct solution is to call 911, then proceed along the lines that are best. Someone who stands up with their sensitive case in front of national media to bash BYU but unwilling to press charges speaks volumes to the person’s lack of timidness. I’m sure there are many instances of shame where the person just doesn’t want to relive it and wants to move on or is afraid. Clearly this is not the case.

    I agree the concept of confession to the honor code office for being raped is outrageous. If she was raped simply can tell them that and leave it there. But surely this whole media attention is to actually get the honor code office out of investigating instances of law of Chastity violations?

20. Hi Gry,

    You sound much like the people I worked with when the first news of tail hook came out. “Surely,” they said, “the woman accusing the fine sailors who fly jets off Carriers is some kind of lying bimbo.”

    Then the woman came forward, and it turned out she was an officer. And it turned out that everything she had alleged had, in fact, occurred.

    I don’t know of too many women willing to have their image broadcast to a world stage over an alleged rape if they had merely been involved in a night of regretted sex that had unforeseen consequences. So, yes, I made the leap of allowing that she was telling enough of the truth to allow me to characterize her reported assailant as a creep. In my book he is a creep unless he is entirely innocent of any involvement in the reported abuse.

    My daughter, who knows far more about this than I, shared a cute little training video about when sex is consensual. Except they talk about tea. They make the point that it is never right to force a person to drink the tea, even if the person initially indicated they might be willing to have tea. And they emphasize over and over that when a person becomes unconscious, they can’t want tea.

    So, Gry, I hear you spouting the standard, “But maybe the man didn’t give her tea at all, or she wanted the tea and only regretted it afterwards.” I’ve researched the rape statistics in Utah. Utah should be entirely ashamed with respect to how badly they follow up on accusations of rape. BYU should do better than its surrounding culture.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder if the man involved is a student, and if he has been barred from attending his classes or dropping them, assuming Bookslinger’s characterization of the situation is correct.

21. Meg, there has been a lot of unfortunate reporting on this issue, including from members of the Church, who have rushed to denounce BYU as many are wont to do. I didn’t go to BYU and have no personal interest in defending it, but I find the countervailing tendency to automatically denounce the school’s practices objectionable for many reasons. BYU is a private, voluntary institution. Nobody is forcing anybody to go there, and the school’s much maligned Honor Code is something that people voluntarily agree to when they go. I also would like to point out that as the father of several children who may go there it is comforting to imagine that there are actually a few schools left that are not completely corrupted by society’s general immorality. In any case, here is BYU’s statement on the matter for those who are interested.

    (Meg, you are right to state as you do above that the school will study the situation, but it may turn out after study that there is no need for reform. Or perhaps there is. Let’s wait and see).

    https://news.byu.edu/news/president-worthen-calls-study-title-ix-reporting-processes-and-structure

22. Meg, I think your claim that Gry is not sufficiently outraged by rape is way over the top. There have been many prominent cases of false claims of rape for publicity, jealousy, craziness and a myriad of different reasons. And I say this with full awareness (perhaps more than you may imagine) of the horrible situation women who really are assaulted are put in having to go through the legal process.

    But still: has anybody ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

23. M Miles,
    There really are quite little on the history of confession, but there is the article by Edward L. Kimball in BYU Studies
    http://byustudies.byu.edu/content/confession-lds-doctrine-and-practice
    But that article too admits that “the precise LDS understanding and practice of confession in the early years of the church are not easily established.”

24. …I wonder if the man involved is a student, and if he has been barred from attending his classes or dropping them…

    I hope a mere accusation will not have this sort of result. Due process, fair dealing, evidence, witnesses, an opportunity to be heard, are important parts of our American heritage.

25. A redacted story from the AP:

    A teenager accused of raping a woman the night after his high school’s football game. John Doe was booked on a count of rape. The victim and a number of friends went out drinking following the football game.
    The victim told detectives she didn’t recall much between the time Doe approached her that night and when she awoke in a hotel room to Doe standing near the door telling her to hurry up so they could leave, the report says. When the victim met with friends in the lobby, they told her “they had been looking for her for some time,” the report says. When Doe contacted the victim later about a jacket she’d left in the room, the woman asked Doe if they’d had sex, the report says. Doe said they did and told her not to tell anyone.

    I read a poster claim that adhering to the Honor Code does not stop or prevent sexual assaults. But, it’s muddy waters like the facts of this case that illustrate the safety in following the Honor Code. Was she so drunk she passed out and he raped her while unconscious? Was she conscious and consenting on the front end, then later not? Was she conscious and now has a change of mind after the fact? Was her consent vitiated by the drinking? Do we impose on John Doe some standard of care and make him responsible for determining whether she was consenting despite drinking? Should people carry around a breathalyzer and, like criminal DUI standards, impose some minimum blood alcohol level for thought impairment? On and on it goes, and all of which most likely could have been avoided had one or both of them not been drinking that night. I don’t have the answer, nor do I want to see victim blaming. Somehow we’ve got to make it safe to report assaults. We also have to have a way to flesh out all the facts before issuing a guilty verdict.

26. Here’s a BBC story talking about police forces in the UK using the Tea analogy video:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-34656527

    and the original video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKn96LdbRl0

    [The expression regarding “Yes, I want a cup of tea” at seconds 10-14 is a bit purple.]

    Regarding the terrible record Utah has had regarding taking rape seriously, BYU Professor Julie Valentine has brought awareness to the issue and is actively working with law enforcement to make things better ($Ms of grants secured, numbers getting better). On the other hand, there has been an unusually high rate of rape in Utah compared to the nation since 1991, based on FBI Uniform Crime Reports. And the “improved” rate of sexual assault kit submissions is only 22.8%, compared to 60% in other parts of the nation.

    https://news.byu.edu/news/byu-professor-works-help-victims-rape-through-depth-research-and-training

27. Geoff takes me to task:

    “your claim that Gry is not sufficiently outraged by rape is way over the top.”

    Geoff followed this up with a direct e-mail.

    I didn’t say Gry (who may be male or female, for all I know) isn’t outraged by rape. I did say that Gry’s immediate response was to imply that Ms. MacDonald had erred by going to the Title IX office or had a political agenda. As Gry wrote, “surely this whole media attention is to actually get the honor code office out of investigating instances of law of Chastity violations…”

    I have pointed out that my experience, informed by the military SAPR processes, is that everyone is encouraged to come forward. There is a zero tolerance approach to abuse. There is also a policy of not discussing details.

    I only blogged about this because an article about BYU and Ms. MacDonald was in the Washington Post Express, a mini newspaper that is handed out around the Nation’s Capital for free to anyone willing to take a copy. It’s probably the only time BYU has even been mentioned in that paper in years. It isn’t the way I would wish to see BYU represented to my closest million neighbors.

    As a former BYU student, parent of a prospective BYU student, and relative of countless BYU students and teachers, I would like to see this resolved in a manner that protects the interest of victims as well as the school.

28. Hi Al,

    There is some inherent tension in the role of the Honor Code Office and the role of the Title IX office in helping victims of sexual assault. I see BYU is looking into the matter, and look forward to hearing whether they determine that change might be needed.

    As a reminder, my mother was called in by the 1960s version of the Honor Code Office. The activity that flagged their interest was the fact that she’d gone on a date with a fellow from the Middle East. As they explained to her, there had been several cases where women had gone on a date with one of the students from the Middle East and ended up having sex with the fellow. As she explained it to me, the fellow would place the woman’s hand on a portion of his body, say during a movie. The woman would feel so violated by having touched an intimate piece of skin that they would then allow the man to proceed to touch her intimate pieces of skin.

    In my mother’s case, no intimate skin had been touched by either party involved in her date. So she and the Honor Code Official parted ways.

    Do watch the tea video (except for seconds 10-14).

    One of the lovely things about getting my Sexual Assault and Prevention Response training via the military is that it is made clear that it doesn’t matter what gender the victim is or what gender the assailant is. When it comes to unwelcome touching (and more), there should be zero tolerance.

29. Hi Old Man,

    Martha must have lied, since she gave two different versions of her account. That doesn’t mean that select aspects of her account weren’t valid. Since both accounts mention Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, and William Clayton, all of whom she knew well, then I consider that part of her account to be more likely than not. I don’t believe her account was accurate with respect to claiming Joseph Smith was involved in the conversation. If someone else was involved in the conversation, I suspect it was William Smith, both because a “Brother Smith” could have been confused for Joseph (who she never had met) and the reported conversation doesn’t match what Joseph would have said, but does match what William would have said.

    Bennett’s writings to the Sangamo Journal were mostly lies from the standpoint that Bennett was accusing Joseph of things that Bennett and others had done (another reason to suspect the variant of Brotherton’s tale that suggested Joseph had talked with her were some other person). On the other hand, the most plausible lies are ones that are mostly true. So I submit that many of the activities related in the Sangamo Journal had occurred, but were being attributed to Joseph rather than the actual perpetrators. Bennett’s description of the three categories of women involved in sexual misconduct is therefore extremely instructive. It doesn’t resemble at all what Joseph was doing in covenanting with women, but it does match what women (circa May 1842) accused Bennett and others of doing.

30. Meg, first chance you and others get is to try to win the debate with the whole you don’t understand rape card.

    Sorry, but the FACT is anyone suggesting title IX office if preferable as a solution to 911 doesn’t understand how to help victims the best. Plain and simple. No qualms. Whoever says that, no matter how well intentioned they may be is just wrong at the best way to educate people on what to do.

    Sexual assault. Pretty much the worst thing you can do next to murder. Violence to the very core of an individual and to the very powers that make life possible.

    And we aren’t shouting from the rooftops to call 911. What?!? Again, anyone who is being educated to do anything other than call 911/hospital/police in some order or another is being given bad advice.

    And it’s perfectly fair to wonder why anyone would go to a federally mandated (inherently political) office to report sexual assault, and then a lawyer and the media, but apparently not the hospital or police is being taught very poorly, or is possibly suspect.

    Disease, pregnancy, physical injury, suspect at large who may do it again. All possibilities here and the fact is title IX doesn’t help any of those.

    This is a problem worth discussing. Whatever the merits of complaining about BYU, the complainers are ignoring the elephant in the room. Those who push this title IX agenda aren’t looking out for the best interest of the victim and society.

31. As a missionary, I remember this little 10 year old girl accused her step father of assaulting her. I served in a small farm town in a very LDS area. Her mother didn’t believe her and some in the ward accused her of being a liar-even after the step father was found guilty and sent to prison. She was a child and had such a massive weight to carry. It wasn’t just the weight of her abuse she had to work through, but the weight of disbelief and accusations from others. If a ten year old was dealt with so coldly by many she needed support from, I can only imagine what a grown woman must go through.

32. Niklas,

    Thanks!

33. It seems to me that the HC office deemed Miss Macdonald guilty until proven innocent (effectively expelling her mid-term for her lawyer-advised refusal to submit to their interrogation) and ruined her academic career as a result of their rush to judgment. Her lawyers should have a field day against BYU (specifically the mindless and heartless jerks in the HC office), the Provo police, and the cop in question who illlegally transmitted the police file to the HC office.

    Granted, this story is coming to us filtered by the press, and originating from Miss Macdonald.

    If expelling her was what the HC office wanted to do, they could have at least let her finish out the term (informing her in advance that they were not going to “invite” her back for subsequent terms), or else let her drop that term’s courses without grade penalty.

    The church is still true. i hope the GAs get in front of this as soon as possible and do right by the girl.

    Geoff, in regards to BYU’s reputation, unfortunately it is any organization’s outliers and headlines that grab people’s attention and form public opinion, in spite of the daily unheralded success stories.

    My experience in the MTC (staffed and led by BYU employees) for 8-1/2 weeks in the 1980’s was not overall positive. I saw some things that correspond to the platitudinous complaints against BYU. I sincerely hope and believe that BYU’s management style and management culture has improved since then.

    I have been blessed to be able to (eventually) resolve the true-church-versus-imperfect-people paradox or “tension” or whatever it’s called. But having seen how church sausage is made, (maybe that’s not a good metaphor either) I have a degree of sympathy for those who get tripped up by experiencing imperfect people administering God’s official church.

    It’s all part of the test of life. The imperfect bishop is as much of a test as the immoral advertisements that appear on computer screens.

    Besides, there just aren’t enough perfect men to fill all the priesthood leadership positions. Some wards just have to make do. 😉

34. Gry,

    She did go to the hospital and police. That is why there was a 25 page medical report in the file that BYU was given that they aren’t supposed to have.

35. Meg (and others),

    It appears that many of those contributing are confusing different accounts and stories about multiple individuals. In the case of Madeline McDonald, the story appears to be relatively straightforward. Two years ago, when she was an 18 year old freshman, she was apparently assaulted. The news stories reporting about her don’t give any real information beyond that. She complained to the Title IX office (the outcome of which does not seem to have been reported) and was contacted by the Honor Code Office. The news reports regarding her case don’t give any reason why the Honor Code Office did contact her, though I know from personal experience working with the HCO back in the 90’s that they would have had to have something beyond just her status as a victim. Their investigation was very brief, and one can assume that Ms. McDonald cooperated with them to some extent, and her case was dismissed in two weeks. She complains that for those two weeks she was worried that she might get some sanction from the HCO, but no explanation for why she had anything to fear. The news reports leave us to assume that she had to fear simply because she was an assault victim, but that does not strike me as believable.

    It is interesting that Ms. McDonald’s assaulter has not been prosecuted.

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1d5a9f98680b44189bb9bcd88cc0c85d/byu-students-investigated-school-after-reporting-rape

    Ms. McDonald’s story is only being shared in the news now, two years later, in the context of the bigger story being told by Madi Barney. She was reportedly raped last September by someone she met at the gym. No other details of the assault or the events that surrounded the assault have been reported, at least that I have seen. She reported the assault to the Provo police department, which began investigating it and ultimately arrested the suspect who is now facing charges. When he was released on bond, he was given a copy of the police report and other related documents. Criminal defendants are entitled to these documents.

    A copy of the police report made it into the hands of an employee of the Utah County Sheriff’s Office, who works as a correctional officer, and who has ties to BYU’s track teams in an unofficial way. He has been described in news reports as a friend of the defendant, but this has been contradicted in other reports. The truth is not publicly known at this time. In any event, he delivered a copy of the police report to the HCO. Public comments by this individual says that he did it because there was evidence in the report that Ms. Barney was not in compliance with the Honor Code and he didn’t feel it was right that she was at BYU. Charges of witness tampering were brought by the prosecutor who is working the Barney assault case, but were withdrawn when he was overruled by a superior. More about this prosecutor below.

    So, in November, the HCO contacted Ms. Barney and said that they needed to talk to her. She refused. She was allowed to continue in school the following semester (which just ended this week) but when she continued to refuse to cooperate with the HCO they put a hold of her and she is unable to register for any more classes until the HCO investigation is complete. Like Ms. McDonald, there hasn’t been anything on the public record, that I have seen, which would implicate Ms. Barney in any violation of the Honor Code. It is entirely possible, if we give her the benefit of the doubt, that she would have gotten the same treatment as Ms. McDonald if she would have been willing to just go sit down with them. Obviously the evidence isn’t too damning, or she would have been kicked out of BYU long before now.

    So, that leaves us with a number of other potential explanations, but to choose one or the other would be just speculation. Perhaps she is concerned that an investigation will bring other problems to light that will result in her being kicked out. Perhaps she is standing on principle, that she won’t participate with the HCO process because she doesn’t think that they should be involved in the first place. I tend to lean more towards another theory myself, dealing with the prosecutor. The prosecuting attorney in Utah County advised her not to talk to the Honor Code Office. This is odd in that the prosecutor is not Ms. Barney’s attorney. He represents the state and the county, but not any individual resident of the same. However, if the prosecutor believes that Ms. Barney would be kicked out of BYU because of the things in the police report, he may very well try to talk her out of cooperating because he credibility as a witness would suffer as a result. We may never know, and the irony of it all is that Ms. Barney’s image is tarnished now in Provo in the eyes of potential jurors because of this whole episode.

    Again, I have no special inside information about Ms. Barney. She hasn’t revealed anything about why the HCO might be interested in talking with her. The guy who turned the police report over to the HCO merely stated that he didn’t think it was not right that she was doing what she was doing as a BYU student. What I do know is that she would not be investigated simply for being a victim. There must be more to it than that.

36. Hi Gry,

    As mentioned, I don’t know what gender you might be. I have not presumed that you don’t understand rape. I am merely pointing out that you have made a few assertions about this that a simple google search on my part found to be ill-advised.

    M Miles has pointed out that Ms. MacDonald apparently did go to the hospital and to the police.

    Regarding the Title IX matter, the BYU President Worthen’s statement said:

    “A student who reports a sexual assault is immediately referred to the Title IX Office. The student then has the option to meet with a coordinator, is provided written information about their rights and options, and is offered resources and services based on their individual situation.”

    As for the suspect at large who may do this again and the efficacy of reporting to Utah police, I recommend you review the article about Professor Valentine, who is doing great work helping police in Utah understand how to up their game. Utah is still well below performance compared to rape response in other states, but they have made decently impressive improvements since the recent days when only 6% of reported rape cases resulted in prosecution.

    Only tangentially related, but as a teen I spent long hours into one morning listening to various movers and shakers in the Utah NOW organization. If I am not mistaken, they had all been raped. In at least one case the woman’s failure to make a timely report resulted in her friend being raped by the same man who had raped her.

    I haven’t ever been raped myself. I have been subjected to physical and psychological violence. But not rape. This is not an area where I feel a need to “endure all things.”

37. @ Michael Davidson:

    Thank you for setting the record straight. I’ll now go edit my post to reflect the information you shared with us.

38. Michael Davidson- Madi can’t speak until the trial is over. She is the key witness and it has been advised that it could compromise the ongoing trial. The prosecutor has tried explaining this to BYU and Madi has an attorney as well.

39. Marie,

    Speaking as an attorney, that is a ridiculous statement. Ms. Barney could speak to the BYU Honor Code Office without compromising her testimony at trial. Her comments to the press over the last week have done more damage to the state’s case than any private conversation with the HCO. If she was worried about the prosecution, she would have not spoken to the press.

    I feel bad for her. She is being used as a pawn by forces beyond her control. She will regret this all sooner than later.

40. Having read the bigstory version, it appears we have a girl from California who was assaulted in 2015 being asked to explain how she came to be raped in accordance with a code developed by kids from Wasatch valley in 1949.

    I think it would be a huge tragedy if Madison Barney failed to return to testify, given that her assailant is being prosecuted.

    I think the honor code is awesome. That said, I’m at a loss to figure out what a correct policy might be. The use cases are not all well-served by the current policy, it appears. But when I toss about alternate rule sets, other use cases are ill-served.

    Luckily, it isn’t my job to study this or fix it. But the matter isn’t something I felt should be ignored by M*.

41. It is interesting to note that none of the news stories about this have been actual news stories. Everything I have seen has been written with an eye towards a specific idealogical goal. I was speaking with a prosecutor friend from AZ about this just an hour ago, and he is shocked that none of the local news outlets seem to have requested the police report through Utah’s freedom of information act analogue. The big lie in the coverage to date is that BYU just persecutes rape victims for no good reason. The truth is the HCO wouldn’t have lifted a finger without some cause. Now that Ms. Barney has put herself out there and made accusations about BYU, the police report would be fair game for a reporter to get into.

42. If it were possible to access the records, I believe the governing code is the Utah Government Records and Management Act (GRAMA):

    http://archives.utah.gov/recordsmanagement/government-records-law.html
    http://archives.utah.gov/opengovernment/grama_law_previous/2014-grama-law.pdf

    Even though Ms. Barney has gone public, I don’t believe GRAMA would permit the records associated with the prosecution of her assailant to be made public as long as that case hasn’t been adjudicated. I’m basing this off the fact that the ruling in the case of my brother’s being tasered left it in a limbo that prevents him from using GRAMA to access the police records associated with the attack, even though this all occurred in March 2010. I made enough of a fuss back in the day that the FBI agent involved (tangentially) called me personally to explain.

    At any rate, the limitations on release of public records associated with an open investigation would be why the reporters who have picked up on the story are avoiding Ms. Barney and highlighting Ms. MacDonald.

43. So I thought I would have to develop a big matrix to figure out all the use cases. But it’s more simple than that.

    Association of individuals with BYU

    1) If neither the victim nor the assailant are associated with BYU, then the BYU honor code isn’t germane.

    2) If the assailant is associated with BYU, the victim could report the crime to BYU and an honor code investigation would begin against the assailant.

    3) If the victim is associated with BYU, they could report the crime to BYU. Currently an honor code investigation might also begin of the victim.

    If individuals are not guilty

    1) If the assailant is found not guilty of inappropriate behavior, then the honor code investigation will be closed without sanction.

    2) If the victim is found not guilt of inappropriate behavior, then the honor code investigation will be closed without sanction.

    Guilt of the victim

    1) If the victim lied about the assault, the sanction would be based on the victim having lied.

    2) If the victim was involved in concomitant honor code violations that contributed to the assault, the sanction would be based on the concomitant honor code violations.

    3) If the victim was innocent of any concomitant violations, then the investigation would be closed without sanction.

    Chilling effect of honor code reporting on assault reporting

    If victims believe they might be sanctioned, they will be less likely to report assault.

    1) Even if a victim is ultimately found innocent of any wrongdoing, the possibility of an honor code investigation would be traumatic.

    2) If a victim thinks there could be grounds for being found in violation of the honor code, the risk to their own future would prevent them from reporting to BYU. Given that there appear to have been instances of non-victims proactively outing victims to the Honor Code office, this would also have a chilling effect on victims reporting to non-BYU authorities.

    Fraudulent retention of BYU status

    If the Honor Code Office were never in future provided any information about sexual assault related to ongoing investigations, then it is possible that either victims or assailants could fraudulently retain their ability to retain BYU privileges.

    1) An assailant might be allowed to remain at BYU. Utah rape prosecutions were only at 6% of reported rapes. So an assailant would be have no chance of being found guilty in a timely manner, and little chance of ever being found guilty.

    2) A “victim” who lied about an assailant would be allowed to remain at BYU.

    3) A victim who was assaulted but who had committed concomitant violations of the honor code would be allowed to stay at BYU.

    It seems to me that it would be appropriate to leave in place mechanisms to report alleged assailants to the Honor Code Office. Even though I’ve seen innocent individuals accused of wrongful deeds. Legal channels in Utah are simply too slow and ineffective.

    It seems to me that the Honor Code Office should never be involved in investigating a victim of assault. The risk of a chilling effect on reporting and inflicting trauma are too great. This does mean there will be instances where someone fraudulently retains status at BYU. However if the “victim” is guilty of slander or libel, they could eventually become subject of an Honors Code Office investigation. If the victim committed concomitant Honors Code violations that contributed to the assault, then they might not need the Honors Code Office to pile trauma on top of trauma.

    If BYU clarified that no Honor Code Office investigation is ever opened against a victim merely because a victim reported assault, then silly people wishing to protest Honor Code investigations would be left entirely without standing.

44. “The police acted stupidly”

    Why is it so important to be the first to share an opinion on something like this. I understand that it’s an easy stance to take, to shake your fist at the big bad religious institution and defend the poor rape victim, but what happened to getting the whole story first. I really hate the dialogue around rape now and the complete disregard of the 5th Amendment.

    I’ve had 2 close family members that have been sexually assaulted. Both were young, drunk, and partying. It’s considered “victim shaming” to wonder if things would’ve turned out differently had they not been drinking at partying. Our culture is so backwards right now, that even members of the church can’t admit that there is real protection behind the commandments. I’m not even talking about the honor code, because I went to BYU-I and wearing shorts isn’t a sin. I mean, the word of wisdom, and the law of chastity. Is it not PC to talk about the Armor of God? I’m not saying this girl put herself in that situation, but I’m countering the idea of “victim shaming,” which seems to be the accusation against BYU

    I think it’s wrong to tell girls that they are powerless when it comes to rape. That no matter what they do, statistically they have a 1 in 5 chance of being raped on a campus. I think that is utter garbage. I don’t care if it isn’t politically correct, I’m going to teach my daughter that if she stands in holy places, and keeps the commandments, she won’t fall into the snares of the devil. She can keep herself safe from those that would take advantage of her. Don’t put yourself in that situation! Please, don’t let the world scare you from teaching your children gospel truths. Stand in holy places

    If someone is driving and chooses not to wear a seatbelt, and dies after being hit by a drunk driver, is it “victim shaming” to say, “maybe they would’ve survived had they been wearing a seatbelt?” This is one of those cases where I believe our culture is at odds with the Gospel.

45. Hi Shplaine,

    As a parent I tell my children that if they avoid putting naked selfies on the Internet and avoid drinking and partying and other things, they will be less unsafe.

    But as we learned from Haun’s Mill and the reported rape of Eliza Snow, bad things don’t only happen to bad (or unwise) people.

    I do think the risk of victims remaining silent is entirely too high even in the best of circumstances, leaving perpetrators to run free. When you add a cultural shaming element, then even more victims remain silent.

    Just as no bad behavior on the part of a spouse warrants physical abuse of that spouse, no bad behavior on the part of a victim warrants sexual assault of that victim.

    If a person is lying before you bleeding from a potentially fatal wound (e.g., punctured carotid), you don’t attend first to a lesser condition (dry skin).

    Or to use a different example, if a single woman comes to you and mentions they are worried they might be pregnant, you don’t start off by lecturing them on premarital sex. You help them figure out how to do a pregnancy test, and take matters from there. Sure, Emma Hale [Smith] insisted that those in error should be thrust out of Relief Society in the day, but recall Joseph Smith’s addendum that we should forgive these and love them, lest they not escape the damnation of hell. I think the original quotes were from the Relief Society minutes from late May 1842, when Emma and Joseph both knew there had been terrible events that would have rendered at least a dozen people ousted by the BYU Honor Code.

    Reflecting on 1842, it is instructive how few of the individuals faced public shaming and how many of those who had been involved returned to full fellowship in the LDS faith.

    For what it’s worth, it is possible to use AI bots to model the effect on populations of policies. So it would be possible to model the impact of proposed policies on victims and assailants.

46. Shplaine I also think it is important to teach girls/women good ways to protect themselves however if we were to do all the things that are advised in the name of protection we would never leave the house. All things I have heard:
    – Don’t be out after midnight
    – Don’t drink
    – Don’t wear (insert type of) clothes
    – Don’t walk alone after dark
    – Don’t walk alone
    – Don’t park next to a van
    – Don’t go jogging
    – Don’t leave your drink unattended

    Now in theory women could do all these things (and the countless other things people suggest) and retreat to safe places but would this really keep us safe? I’m reminded of a news story last year where a 17 year old was murdered after jogging through a park at 6pm. The Homicide chief advised that parks weren’t safe for women. The next day, during daylight hours the same murderer raped a women in a Christian bookstore 500m from a police station. The fact is women are never safe. Prostitutes are raped, drunk girls are raped, married women are raped by their husbands, elderly women are raped by intruders, women are raped on dates, girls are raped by family members, women wearing short skirts are raped and so are ones wearing burkas. The one thing these women have in common is their proximity to a rapist. It might make us feel better if we feel like we can control our circumstances, if we can find fault with the actions of these women; see she had a drink, she let boy into her room, she let him kiss her, she didn’t follow the honor code. But the fact is we can’t control our proximity to rapists; they are everywhere even BYU. So the least BYU can do is ensure the well-being of it’s student body by ensuring rape and sexual assault victims feel safe to report these crimes. This is more important than if she had a drink, or let a boy into her room, or let him kiss her.

47. Hi Claire,

    As Geoff mentioned, let’s not turn this into a “men don’t understand and all women are completely vulnerable” discussion.

48. If what Claire said is true — …we can’t control our proximity to rapists; they are everywhere… — then women must take prudent steps to protect themselves. Sometimes, these prudent steps might appear prudish.
    It’s a matter of risk management. Regrettably, there are no guarantees. All persons in all societies face these dilemmas. Fortunately, and speaking broadly, the men of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are among the best and kindest men in the world.

49. @Meg

    What I’ve learned from Haun’s Mill is to always follow the prophet, and to train our wives and daughters in firearms. Hope you carry

50. Shplaine. Carry AND learn hand to hand self-defense. Women are not defenseless wilting flowers. With the right training they should be able to defend themselves against bigger, more aggressive attackers.

51. @Claire

    Rapists are everywhere? I’m trying to figure out why generally, women who tell us rapists are everywhere, are also against the idea of carrying a gun. If rapists are all over campus, I’ll invite you to join me in the effort to have BYU change the firearm policy on campus.

52. Back in the day when a fellow was threatening to kill me with semi automatic up firearms, I carried pepper spray. And I made it very clear to everyone what was happening.

    As for an incidental event where somebody’s trying to do more than I’m happy with, I have two little hands that are perfectly capable of crushing balls. Those protected by the orbital bones and any others that come within proximity.

53. What I find funny(or morbid) about the yes-means-yes law is that it actually accuses all men who have ever had sex as rapists. If a woman does not audibly consent throughout sexual encounters, then it is rape.

    Anyway, the real rapists are the benefactors because the waters have become so muddied, the women themselves can’t always figure out if something was consensual on their part.

    http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/31/ending-the-real-rape-culture/

    “The “yes,” for example, must be ongoing. In California’s law, “Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time.” Furthermore, this revocation cannot depend on a no, but only on continued delivery of the yes, for the law also states, “Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent.””

    Read the whole thing for a good analysis of “rape culture” on college campuses.

54. Michael Davidson- The initial reports I have read said she was under advisement not to discuss her case with BYU. The prosecuting attorney’s boss has said the same thing you have. The charges against the police officer were thrown out and the officer has now changed his story as to why he gave the report to BYU. So I don’t know, the more that is written about this story the less sense it makes.

55. I agree that self-defence is an important skill. It was always a powerful Mutual activity. Being from down under guns are not something I am familiar with and to be honest not something i myself would be willing to consider. I imagine that considering the he said/she said nature of a lot of rape cases that using a gun in self-defence would just result in murder/attempted murder charges especially for WOC. It is hard too that the list of things a woman shouldn’t do to avoid rape also includes things women should do (carry a gun, be proficient at self-defence, carry pepper spray, use a rape whistle etc). This is pretty exhausting and overwhelming, even if the advice is good, especially for women who are not able-bodied or who are intellectually impaired.

    I didn’t mean to imply that women are vulnerable little creatures watching out for rapists behind every corner but rather that any environment, including BYU, can be unsafe. But of course there are things we can do to mitigate those dangers and one of those things is to ensure BYU has a safe policy regarding the reporting of sexual assault.

56. @claire

    If rape is such a threat to women (“rapists everywhere”), why wouldn’t you want to do everything in your power to protect yourself. While I don’t agree with you that rapists are everywhere, I believe sin is all around us, and you can complain that it is exhausting to do all the things necessary to protect yourself from sin, but if you really believe sin is all around, you do the things necessary to keep yourself safe. I really don’t understand how in one sentence, you can tell us that rapists are all around, and in the next, complain about all the ways to protect yourself.

    If you believe that no matter what you do, you have a high chance of being raped, what are you going to do about it? What are women going to do about it? Change the rapists? Keep expanding the definition of rape? Are you of the camp that advocates urinating yourself to fend of the attacker? Making sure BYU has a safe reporting policy is fine and well for AFTER you’re raped, but how about we do something to prevent the rapes? Kind of hard to believe that you believe what you’re saying.

    I really don’t get how 100% of women aren’t pro-gun. The gun is the great equalizer. You aren’t going to use your strength or your kung fu skills on someone that outweighs you by 80 pounds and biologically has much more muscle mass. If you have a gun, you don’t need to carry a rape whistle, or pepper spray, or know hand to hand combat. Buy a gun, learn to use it, and carry it (unless you’re in a country where your government doesn’t trust you enough to allow it).

57. @claire

    Rereading your posts, I’m convinced that you don’t have the updated statistics on rape. While I focused on safeguards such as the word of wisdom and law of chastity, you brought up the list of what you wear, being alone at night etc. I think you’re stuck in the 30 yr old myth of “rapists hiding in the bushes for you.” This is the same myth of “the man in the van waiting to kidnap your children.” I can see that if you really do believe there are strange men hiding in the bushes everywhere, that a discussion on the honor code for prevention would seem meaningless. Here’s what you can read on wiki:

    “Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone’s home. 31% occur in the perpetrators’ homes, 27% in the victims’ homes and 10% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7% occur at parties, 7% in vehicles, 4% outdoors and 2% in bars”

    For the US, 26% of rapes were done by former or current partners, 7% by other relatives, 38% by a friend or acquaintance, and 26% by strangers. In Australia, only 8% by strangers.

    Kidnappings are similar, with the majority of them done by family members.

    There’s a reason why I didn’t mention anything on your list from 1980 on how to keep yourself safe from rapists. It’s not based in reality. My 2 family members that were raped were drunk at parties and it was by people they knew. I’m not going to advocate carrying a gun while you get drunk at parties, not just because it’s illegal, but because it’s stupid. Carrying a gun is for when you do everything right, and someone still wants to do you harm. The word of wisdom and the law of chastity can protect from the majority of the cases of rape, and the gun can take care of the rest

58. Why I don’t carry a gun:

    1) I work in DC, and it is illegal to carry guns in DC. Since I’m a fed (and like to keep my job), I like obeying laws.

    2) When I was carrying pepper spray, each of my three brothers picked up the can and said, “What’s this?” Then they sprayed themselves in the mouth. Given that it was pepper spray, it was slightly funny. With a gun, it wouldn’t have been. Granted that my brothers might not have put a gun in their mouth, but I have many other relatives. And at least one relative did die in a gun accident, which tore the extended family apart.

    Thinking about the Title IX office and the Honor Code Office, I think I would revise my suggestion. I still think the Title IX office should not be providing information about assault victims to the Honor Code Office. However, I would be in favor of them recommending a victim contact the Honor Code Office and inform them fully of any circumstances that an accuser might be able to bring against them. Then I would leave it with the victim.

    By way of example, I’ve mentioned the fellow who threatened to kill me. He had wanted to marry me. We had been inappropriate together. But I had been talking with my bishop and had confessed everything. Which, by the way, is why the fellow threatening me had actually loaded his gun and attempted to go after my bishop. His room mates stopped him.

    Fast forward. It turned out the fellow decided not to actually shoot me. And I hadn’t let him ruin my life by agreeing to “help” him commit suicide. So he went to my estranged husband and offered to testify against me to wrest custody of our child from me. He then also went to my bishops (family ward and, following the divorce, my singles’ ward) and all the single men in my ward (small ward) and told them various tales of acrobatic feats I had allegedly performed in various stages of undress, etc. (I don’t use reportedly here, since I was also a supposed participant in the acrobatic feats, and many of the tales (the most interesting ones) had nothing to do with reality).

    Because I had already been entirely open with my Bishop, what could have been a bomb turned into a dud. I hadn’t been entirely open with my estranged husband, at the advice of my bishop. But it turned out that estranged husband and I had a great conversation where I confirmed what was true and what was false. Estranged husband burned the “evidence” and the two of us were able to get back to a decent friendly posture, though not a posture consistent with remaining married.

    As far as the tall tales vengeful gunman told my Bishop, I was horrified at the end of the interview. I think I said, “No one will want to date me now.” The bishop, in the most kind and loving way, countered me, saying, “I don’t think that will be a problem…” My fellow ward members who I dated after that were complete gentlemen. So whatever they’d been told about me didn’t make them either avoid dating me or attempt to take advantage of me.

    We love free agency. I think the matter of discussing an assault with the Honor Code Office should be suggested, but ultimately left to the discretion of the individual who was assaulted.

59. @meg

    As of now, DC is in the process of being sued for it’s gun laws and restrictions. It’ll be legal to conceal carry soon enough. Even if you don’t like the idea of a gun, I would strongly suggest taking a course just to learn about them. If you think they are that dangerous, what harm would it do to learn how to safely handle one and teach others? For the past few years, women have been getting more involved with shooting sports and gun purchases in general. I applaud this. My wife and sister-in-law used to be terrified of guns, but over the years they have learned how to safely use them and feel confident in their ability to use them.

    I’m sorry about your experience. I remember my sister met some real weirdos on ldssingles, and it put her off of dating members. I don’t think you meant to, but your experience points out the real flaw in the current attitude of the “right” of rape accusers to be believed. You saw the other side of it and although it wasn’t an accusation of rape, it was serious enough that you worried for your reputation. Even the UN recognizes that the presumption of innocence is a human right, which we recognize with the 5th Amendment. That’s why I don’t understand presidential nominees saying every rape accuser deserves to be believed. No! That’s not how this works. I’m not saying your experience should make us skeptical of every claim, but going back to “the police acted stupidly,” I would hope that we would at least wait until we know what happened, or until a judgement has been passed.

60. I work at the Navy Yard, where what’s his name shot various people on September 16, 2013. I am certain I would not be permitted to carry a gun there or in any of the various places where I work, even if DC itself decided to allow guns.

    I am surrounded by folks who do carry guns and are highly trained to use them. I have shot guns, and thoroughly enjoyed researching the likely shots that killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith (likely shot by John C. Elliott using a borrowed Neimeyer, .49 caliber, possibly with a hair trigger, from at least 100 years to the east of Carthage Jail using a rest). When I deal in weapons for my job, I talk about the kind that can blow up ships.

    That said, I would find having a gun to be inconvenient. If I ever did want a gun, my brothers have lots of them and could no doubt give me great pointers.

    A downside of using a gun for self-defense is that an attacker who has longer arms and greater strength would likely be able to wrest the weapon from me and use it against me. So I assess the bother and risk to be sufficiently great that it isn’t worth the nominal benefit.

61. @meg

    I started in the Air Force and am now in the Army. Navy jokes are my favorite =P.

    I see you get a lot of crap online and I don’t mean to be one more person giving you grief. I’ll say good on you for defending your opinion. The rage these days seem to try and shut opposing views up.

    I don’t see how people voluntarily live in DC. All the gun laws and highest gun murder rate. I’m hoping we’ll see legal conceal carry on bases in the next couple years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

    DC gun ownership is the lowest in the US, and gun murder rate the highest. Then on the opposite end of that, you have Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming with the highest percentage of gun ownership and lowest gun murder rate.

62. @Shplaine The great fallacy that you are operating under is that a rapist is a bad stranger guy that you could stop with a gun. Most young college women are raped by guys they know, and it is not unusual that their reaction when being assaulted is to be unable to move, to react. They are in a state of shock. That gun would be useless, even if it occurred to them to use it on a guy that they knew and liked (maybe even up until that moment loved and trusted). “Call 911!” is also silly advise because 1) many young women are not in an emotional state to even think of it (it is very common to initially not want to believe what has happened–even when they’ve sustained severe vaginal damage) and 2) they know that the likelihood that the police will even do anything is about zero. How many rape kits have been processed where you live? Probably an appallingly low percentage.

    It is quite common in college towns (not just LDS ones, btw) for the young woman to be ostracized for reporting a rape, especially if the guy is either someone she is dating or is popular (“he could have any girl he wants–why would he need to rape her?”). It has been called the only crime where the victim is routinely treated as guilty. Her sexual history, her motivations, her intimate body parts, her behavior before/during/after will all be scrutinized, not only by police, but also by a jury and defense attorney if the case goes to trial. And most people will think, “she should have screamed!” (many women are too afraid/shocked and physically can’t) “She should have fought him off!” (also a significant percentage will have that frozen reaction–especially when it is someone she knows, and even those who try are often not successful. Men are, in general, a lot stronger than women) “She shouldn’t have ever let him [in her room, kiss her, get her alone, etc, etc]”–this is what we say when we try to make ourselves feel safe. “I would never do what she did (or my perfect child knows never to be in that situation) so I am safe!!” That’s basically whistling in the dark. The truth is, this could happen to you or your child, no matter how perfectly you live your life (even if you had a gun!). And of course, if she didn’t do any of those self-defense things, people tend to think she’s lying about the rape (so she might choose not to report).

    Yes, following the commandments will be a protection and I’m sure far fewer BYU students are sexually assaulted than at the university in my city where students think getting drunk is necessary to have fun and sex is considered mere recreation. But I’m seeing in these comments a lot of misinformation about rape–how it occurs, by whom it is often perpetrated in this age group, and how a normal young woman will react if she finds herself in that situation. It’s not what you think and most of the traditional advise (scream! fight! call 911! use a gun!) is naive. Some women can do those things, many cannot. If she cannot, it doesn’t mean she assented. Rape is a violent crime often committed by someone the young woman knows and trusts–the emotional damage is severe, her behavior may seem illogical, but she needs support (regardless of how she handled the situation) and she needs to be considered truthful unless proven otherwise.

    Also, the only thing BYU really can be concerned with is the honor code. They cannot prosecute a crime; that is not their job. They can decide whether a person can continue as a student–that’s it. I have a friend who served on such a council while a student at Uof Nebraska, and she said there were several similar cases. No lawyers allowed, and the university listened to both sides and made their own decision whether the student in question could remain. It was not a court of law and did not hew to the rules and regulations of one. I’ll bet that most people don’t realize that many (most?) universities do this. I would hope that if someone has suffered the terrible trauma of rape, the HCO would take that into consideration and cut her some slack.

63. Meg, your book and your reconstructions are unfortunate.

64. Hi Brian,

    Good to see you here.

    As far as the testimony of the women, that is from the document you forwarded to me. Lucy Ann Munjar is mentioned in those testimonies and in the Relief Society minutes. Hers is the case that most obviously ties things together.

    I was so excited to learn that the two Kingsley girls mentioned in those testimonies eventually got right with the Church.

    You object to my reconstruction regarding Brigham Young and Martha Brotherton. I was guided in that direction by William Clayton’s journal, which mentions BY as having transgressed yet not transgressed. As you may know, the only BY listed in the Hancock County census was Brigham Young, and the only two BYs in Nauvoo circa 1842 were Brigham Young and his son, Brigham Young.

    If Brigham transgressed in approaching Martha, as implied by the Clayton journal, he most certainly repented and went on to become one of the greatest leaders of the Mormon movement. Given that we are talking about the Honor Code and its role in helping people fly straight, it seems apropos.

    As far as my book being unfortunate, I assume you say so having now read it? If not, I am happy to send you a copy.

65. @Kate

    I think you missed my comment where I shared statistics of rape. I stick to my claim:

    “The word of wisdom and the law of chastity can protect from the majority of the cases of rape, and the gun can take care of the rest”

    I didn’t see any recommendations from you to curb the rape epidemic (I don’t believe there’s a rape epidemic, statistics show violent crime is lower than ever). It’s great to have plans for AFTER the rape, but I’m more focused on preventing the rape.

    ” it is not unusual that their reaction when being assaulted is to be unable to move, to react. ”

    “But I’m seeing in these comments a lot of misinformation about rape… and how a normal young woman will react if she finds herself in that situation. It’s not what you think and most of the traditional advise (scream! fight! call 911! use a gun!) is naive.”

    You say this as if it only refers to women being raped. It’s a natural reaction humans have in any stressful situation. We refer to it as fight, flight, or freeze. I’ve been a medic in the military for almost 8 years. I get to see this quite a bit. You throw someone that’s brand new to the medical world into a mass casualty event, chances are they’ll freeze up. What do we do with them? Admit that they freeze under stress and give them a different job? NEGATIVE! We train them under stressful conditions until they can respond correctly. We start off slowly and gradually add the stress. Airhorns while they treat a patient, strobe lights while sticking an IV, squirt fake blood in their face while they place a tourniquet. In other words, training is crucial. You may think it’s naive but my opinion comes from my studies on the sympathetic response of humans AND training people to overcome the freeze and flight response.

    This doesn’t just work for male medics 😉 In terms of gun training, it’s becoming more popular to train under stressful situations rather than just shooting at a range. You train enough, and drawing/discharging your weapon when needed becomes second nature

    I don’t know, maybe I have an unrealistic view of women because of the women I know and interact with. I refuse to settle for “some women will just always be defenseless.” With that attitude and a refusal to prepare, you have yourself a self-fulfilling prophecy

    One last thing, you said “…she needs to be considered truthful unless proven otherwise.”

    As admirable as you think you are being, you need to take a step back and see how dangerous that is. Now I can understand if a family member is the victim, of course I’m going to believe them. But the way you’re saying it, I think you are referring to society in general, and I cannot or will not ever agree with that statement. Why would that be exclusive to rape too? Why not any accusation? Why not say, “any person that accuses somebody of something needs to be considered truthful unless proven otherwise?” Do you not see the error of this? Like I stated earlier, even the UN recognizes that the presumption of innocence is an international human right. If you make an accusation against me, I am assumed innocent until YOU prove otherwise. I don’t have to prove that I’m not guilty, you have to prove that I am guilty. I’m not ready to throw out the 5th Amendment so we can feel better about ourselves.

    This dialogue around “rape culture” is so dangerous to our freedoms, and people don’t even realize it. You have a presidential candidate who’s husband has been accused of sexual assault multiple times, saying “Every survivor of sexual assault deserves to be heard, believed, and supported.” Pretty much the same thing from Kate. This is wrong and dangerous. “Heard” and “supported?” Yes. Believed? That depends on the courts. Do accusers have rights? How about the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty? The 5th Amendment and the UN believe so. I believe so.

66. If you absolutely hate the idea of guns, the stress training works for other modes of defense as well. The idea is to react to the adrenaline dump, focus on training with gross motor skills as you lose the fine motor skill use, and just train! I know the thought of a grappling or jiu jitsu task is another addition to the “exhausting” list of things to do to be prepared, but it’s no less exhausting than the spiritual training we have to do every day for protection. If anything, it can strengthen your mental strength and capacity and ability to recover from stress.

    I apologize for being kind of a thread hijacker on my first story I comment on at M*. I think it’s a good conversation to have though

67. Sorry Kate, it’s much easier to train people to trust and call 911, and easier to train 911 agencies then to do exactly what 911 should do with an entirely new agency that you then have to get people to know about and trust.

    It’s so asinine in fact that it should be regarded for exactly what it is. A political power grab at the expense of women’s and men’s health as well as a loss of liberty with the clear decline of due process.

68. FWIW, the requirement for each school to have a Title IX coordinator who can work to ensure a harassed/assaulted student can continue their education despite past harassment/assault appears to be a matter of law:

    http://knowyourix.org/title-ix/title-ix-the-basics/

    This isn’t peculiar to BYU.

    The part of the “basics of Title IX” that would seem to be the issue is point #6:

    6. Your school may not retaliate against someone filing a complaint and must keep a victim safe from other retaliatory harassment or behavior.

69. I think Meg has shown the greatest wisdom here. An HCO investigation/interview with someone who has reported being raped:

    1. Unnecessarily punishes the victim, regardless of the outcome of the interview or investigation. But especially so if the person reporting rape is barred from classes, or expelled.
    2. Adds insult to injury.
    3. Adds another layer of psychological trauma.
    4. Jeopardizing the police investigation.
    5. Jeopardizes the prosecution should it go to trial.
    6. Puts a chilling effect on reporting rapes.
    7. Would allow some rapists to continue in the community due to 4, 5, and 6.

    Isn’t the rape/assault itself, and the subsequent trauma and embarrasment of the medical exam and making the report to police, punishment enough?

70. The New York Times has more information regarding Honor Code violations prior to rape accusations:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/us/rape-victims-brigham-young-university-honor-code-suspensions.html

71. So now we add Brooke to the list of individuals who have allowed their names and stories to go public.

    Brooke had been previously assaulted by a fellow student and had been taking LSD. There isn’t reporting on what happened to the fellow student.

    Ms. MacDonald went on a date with a non-student arranged through Tinder and had to deal with a jerk masturbating himself on her, despite her repeated requests that he stop.

    Madison Barney was assaulted by a non-student, went to police, and hesitated reporting to BYU for four days, fearing she’d be kicked out. Utah County Deputy Sheriff Edwin Randolph gave the police report to BYU so that the male students implicated in the report could be investigated by the Honors Code Office. He apparently never intended for Madison Barney to be investigated. Ms. Barney has been barred from enrolling in future classes for refusing to cooperate with the Honors Code investigation. She has returned the favor and decided she won’t be returning to BYU. It is unclear if Ms. Barney’s decision to leave BYU will prevent Utah County from successfully prosecuting Ms. Barney’s attacker.

    To re-iterate, it appears to me that BYU should sever any direct reporting between the Title IX Office and the Honors Code Office, though I do think it would be perfectly valid for the Title IX office to suggest a victim talk with the Honors Code Office to remove the threat of the kind of harassment Ms. Barney suffered. Alternately, the Title IX office could put immunity flags on the records of students who might otherwise come to the attention of the Honor Code Office through external reporting routes.

72. I find it interesting that Ms. Barney still hasn’t revealed what behavior she thought would get her kicked out of BYU. It is clear that there was some damning information in that police report, but the narrative is that she is being punished for being a victim. It is a bit dishonest of her, in my opinion, to push an incomplete and dishonest narrative.

    I would agree with a wall between the Title IX office and the Honor Code office, with some exceptions for really egregious situations.

73. Michael D at 3:24 pm. The point is she was already punished, by being raped. It appears the HCO was being pharisaical prigs, by doubling the punishment.

74. Bookslinger, I’m not sure whether to take your comment seriously. While I concede that rape becomes more likely when an individual engages in behaviors that are generally in violation of the honor code, to assert that she’s facing double jeopardy due to being punished by rape and then punished by the honor code isn’t something that I can agree with. There are some cultures in the world today that view rape as an appropriate punishment for certain misdeeds, but we do not live in one of those, thankfully. I also strongly suspect that the activists working for the SLTrib and other media outlets would strongly disagree that this is the point of their story and would take great offense that the rape is punishment of any kind for engaging in activities that any normal college student should be allowed to do anyway, in their view.

75. Michael Davidson,

    I think what’s sent Bookslinger off is your presumption that she was necessarily guilty of some behavior that made her think the Honor Code Office would have a problem with her being subject to aggravated assault.

    According to the Deputy Sheriff, it was never his intent for Ms. Barney to face any discipline. He reportedly turned over the report because of what it indicated about male students. For all we know, the Honor Code Office was attempting to question Ms. Barney in support of making a determination about the status of the BYU men apparently implicated in the assault she suffered from the 39-year-old non-student.

    I haven’t seen the file, but I can imagine that she was on a date with the non-student (who had put themselves forward as 26-years-old) and when things got out of control, the BYU men failed to come to her aid and instead egged on her attacker. I don’t know that it was necessarily over the top terrible, but I speak from the perspective of a midnight snowman party where my friends and I got “crashed” by jocks who picked up one friend and smashed him down head first. I don’t think any permanent damage occurred, but it was in spite of the action of the athletes, not because they’d been careful.

    Western culture has a strong bias towards hating women and blaming them for existing. Mormon culture has in some ways adopted that medieval woman-hatred and transformed it in ways I believe Joseph Smith (much less Christ) would find repellent. Luckily BYU is led by those who have enough education and love that they can push through the stupid of cultural bias. I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

76. Bookslinger, Meg, and others dangerously close to the liberal mindset…

    Could you please explain why holding someone accountable for their own actions, presumeably done of their own free will, is an unfair punishment. I’m pretty sure the HCO was not “punishing” the alleged sexual assault victims for being victims of sexual assault, but rather for breaking the honor code. Is it unnecessary to hold people accountable for that? Well, students who have signed up for the HC by attending BY have already positively assented to that. The moment they withdraw their assent, they must simultaneously withdraw as students.

    Bad things happen in life. Just why exactly does alleged sexual assault give anyone a “get out of jail free” card? There are people who’s families are murdered, that’s worse, shouldn’t they also get said card? How about the person who gets in a terrible wreck and becomes paralyzed, should the police withhold a drunk driving conviction just because “karma got them?”

    “Adds insult to injury.” I know someone who got in a terrible accident (one for which, I might add, we blame on the icy road, as they were completely sober). When in life threatening injuries, the policed followed the ambulance to the ER, and once she was stabilized, wrote out the ticket. If only she had had some poor schmuck to falsely accuse of sexual assault, she could attempt to avoid the consequences for “losing control of her vehicle.” Sure, some bleeding heart liberal policeman could have said, “Hey, she has to withdraw from the University for a year, will face months of very real physical pain, it will cost a huge amount of money, surely we don’t need to give her a ticket while she’s in the emergency room.” But that is not the rule of law, that is the rule of “I’m God, and can determine when someone else has suffered enough.”

    “Adds another layer of psychological trauma.” All punishment is a form of psychological trauma? Does that mean we shouldn’t lock up sex offenders or murderers? Does that mean we shouldn’t make speeders pay a fine? Does that mean the honor code office shouldn’t counsel with BYU students to get them to stop drinking at parties? That seems to be your implication.

    “Jeopardizing the police investigation.” Call for references.
    “Jeopardizes the prosecution should it go to trial.” Call for references.
    “Puts a chilling effect on reporting rapes.” It also puts a chilling incentive out there for false sexual assault claims.” Stayed too late in someones apartment, claim they petted you. Had a drink at a party, claim someone else kissed you without verbal assent. Ran someone over while driving drunk, claim someone raped you. Once you abandon the rule of law, there’s no logical reason to stop.

    “Isn’t the rape/assault itself, and the subsequent trauma and embarrasment (sic) of the medical exam and making the report to police, punishment enough?”

    No it isn’t. We don’t solve problems by merely punishing people. The HCO counsels with people. Sometimes that counselling does involve punishment, but they’re not doing just for punishments sake. It is an outside accounting of a promise a student made to an institution to uphold a set of standards. Letting an alleged sexual assault victim avoid counseling because something terrible happened to them is like letting a cancer patient forego radiation therapy on a persons pinky because they lost a fingertip. The cancer patient is the BYU student body, the alleged sexual assault victim is the pinky, and losing the fingertip is the alleged sexual assault. Sure, the violence against the pinky is terrible, but allowing the problem to remain helps no one. Further, observations of the cancer growing on the pinky, unchecked, would encourage said cancer to metastasize throughout the entire BYU student body.

    So, I’m rather disappointed by the fairly liberal mindsets represented here, which seem to totally ignore conservative thought in favor of emotional rants.

77. Hi JSGhost,

    If we were talking about an omniscient God, I would absolutely agree with you. In that case, both the aggressor and the victim would both be cooling their heels in God’s HCO, assuming the victim had committed some error.

    Alas, the HCO and the Title IX offices aren’t omniscient. There is little reason for an aggressor to come forward to get help. On the other hand, a victim will want to get help.

    When I worried about the use cases that wouldn’t be well served, I was thinking about the cases where 1) a true victim had committed some error that needed resolution and 2) a false victim was lying for whatever random reason (protection from HCO retaliation, nasty vindictiveness against someone).

    Let me switch over to a completely different subject, active sonar. There are those who argue that there is no justification for giving Navy ships a waiver from the requirement that marine species be left in peace. I think there is someone out there representing themselves as speaking for all dolphins of the world. And there is no doubt that active sonar can cause unfortunate side effects, theoretically including death in some cases. Yet when the judge evaluated all the evidence and constituencies, the judge determined that the best course was to lift the ban on active sonar for that year’s RIMPAC exercise. The Navy had a compelling need to perform training with active sonar, despite the potential risk to marine species.

    In a similar manner, it may be found that the need to avoid a chilling effect on victims could be found to outweigh the need for BYU to aggressively follow up on Honor Code violations a victim committed en route to being assaulted.

    Of the three cases put before us, it appears Ms. MacDonald is the most clear case of a woman doing nothing wrong and getting assaulted. Using online resources to identify someone to date might not be everyone’s idea of best practices in dating, but there is nothing wrong involved.

    Brooke presents us the other end of the spectrum, where she was coerced into sex in association with doing LSD. The use of illegal drugs is not consistent with the Honor Code under any interpretation of things.

    So I hear you echoing Emma that “all who walk disorderly must reform, and any knowing of heinous sins against the law of God, and refuse to expose them, becomes the offender…” saying that you would want none at BYU who have violated the laws.

    But I urge you to remember also what Joseph said, that “they are our fellows — we loved them once. Shall we not encourage them to reformation? …There is now a day of salvation to such as repent and reform– they should be [subjected to appropriate consequences], yet we should woo them to return to God lest they escape not the damnation of hell.”

    May all my days of personal interaction with matters relating to sexual assault be behind me.

    Onwards to the days of interacting with matters relating to fatal illness and other tragedies (not my own fatal illness, at least not yet).

78. “they are our fellows — we loved them once. Shall we not encourage them to reformation? …There is now a day of salvation to such as repent and reform– they should be [subjected to appropriate consequences], yet we should woo them to return to God lest they escape not the damnation of hell.”

    Does this reach to alleged rapists also?

79. Of course.

80. Thanks!

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