Long ago, when I was on my mission, my companion and I attended a funeral. The specific denomination has been lost to time, but it was a Protestant Christian church. At one point in the service, the congregation stood and recited the Lord’s Prayer. I joined in. My companion stood, but she didn’t say it, though I’m not certain if it was because she didn’t know it well enough to say it, or because she thought it was wrong. Her reaction to me saying it – “You know this?” combined with a look like I was going to Hell – led me to think it was sort of both. I merely shrugged and said, “Sure,” and that was all we ever said to each other about it.
Should a good Mormon recite the Lord’s Prayer when visiting another church? Sure, why not. When visiting other churches or other religions, I’m a when-in-Rome person. Unless there is something unethical or immoral (though I’ve never actually been in a such a situation when visiting), I prefer to join in with the rest of the congregation. I do try to be aware of when I should refrain from joining in because I am not a member of that faith, however, so as not to offend – such as partaking of their Communion. Still, when visiting a Presbyterian church at one time, the visitor pamphlet they had in with the hymnals said that visitors were encouraged to participate regardless of whether they were members of that church or even Christian, so I took their Communion.
In the specific case of the Lord’s Prayer, I would argue that reciting it is far from anything immoral. Sure, we have the “avoid vain repetitions” rule, with which I have no disagreement, but repetition does not necessarily mean vain. Also, since I don’t recite it regularly as part of church or personal worship, it is probably less repetitive than most of my prayers (for example, it is a rare prayer that doesn’t include things about my family and work, but such pleadings are not without sincerity) and leaves me with more to ponder.
Now, I’m certainly not advocating that the Lord’s Prayer be incorporated into LDS church services, but I find it to be a nice prayer when visiting other churches, and I’m happy to join their congregation in saying it.
Tanya, agreed, nothing wrong with saying the Lord’s prayer. I like to say it every once in a while myself just because I like the wording and the message. I also like to repeat a few psalms (“The Lord is my shepherd”) at times. Saying the Lord’s prayer is a central part of many churches, such as the Congregational church, where I briefly went before I was baptized here.
I don’t see anything wrong with reciting it. Would you have any problems standing and reciting any other passage of scripture you know by heart?
When I was a little boy, my Lutheran grandmother had me memorize the Lord’s Prayer. When I recited it to her she gave me a wall plaque that had TLP engraved on it.
Later on my mission in Norway I memorized it in Norwegian; that came in handy when I returned home because one of my mother’s non-LDS friends asked me to say it Norwegian, which I did. Hey guys, it’s scripture. Nothing wrong in memorizing some scriptures!
I love the Lord’s prayer. As I recall, once at a meeting I attended a fairly recent convert opened a meeting with the Lord’s prayer, followed by a more standard “we thank Thee” “we ask Thee” prayer. I thought it was beautiful.
Thanks DavidH, your comment brought back the memory of my father (a long time local Church leader, branch president, district president) offering a prayer where he began by reciting the Lord’s Prayer and then gave a beautiful prayer. I remember that event because a) I didn’t think my father knew the Lord’s prayer, b) I had never heard anyone do that before, c) I was shocked that my dad did something that was not standard practice, and d) my dad was not usually eloquent.
As an aside, I recently went to my wife’s great-aunt’s funeral. She was a devout Catholic. I enjoyed repeating the prayers with the rest of the audience.
I find myself reciting the lord’s prayer at times as a roadmap to my own prayer’s. The savior told us to “pray in this manner”. I find that it reminds me of things that have been missing in my own prayers (see “as we forgive those who trespass against us” and “lead us not into temptation”.
Great story, Tanya.
When I attend Mass with my wife’s parents, I try to participate as much as possible in the service. I try to show as much respect as I can for my in-law’s beliefs, which is reciprocated when they attend church with my wife and me.
It’s good to see the Lord’s Prayer is loved amongst the Mormon crowd. Thanks for sharing your experiences/thoughts.
The October 77 Ensign has an article entiles “Respect for Other People’s Beliefs. It is linked at
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1977.htm/ensign%20october%201977.htm/respect%20for%20other%20peoples%20beliefs.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0
There are six points the author points out.
How can we show respect to members of other churches?
1. We can treat things that are sacred to them with respect. The yarmulka of an orthodox Jew, the crucifix or rosary of a Catholic, the icon of a Greek Orthodox, the shrines and temples and sacred places of other faiths—we can treat all these things with the tolerance of heart we desire people to have for our way of life. This does not mean that we need to adopt their religious practices: but it does mean that we should not treat lightly these things or their use of them.
2. So far as it does not offend our own religious understanding, we can observe the customs of other people when we are their guests. That means that a Latter-day Saint who enters a Catholic cathedral can take off his hat, if he is a man, or cover her head, if she is a woman. That means that a shrine that believers approach only after removing their shoes can be shown the same respect by Latter-day Saint visitors. These things show courtesy to the people who believe—no one will suppose that we are worshipping. They will only appreciate our politeness.
3. We must never ridicule another person’s manner of worship. Many of our practices may seem strange to him, too! Though we may disagree with another person’s form of worship, we ought not to make light of it or criticize him for it. For these things represent other people’s sincere efforts to worship God, and though we may make every reasonable effort to give them a fuller understanding in the appropriate setting, these methods of worship are still the outgrowth of the individual’s sincere faith.
4. We can avoid arguing and quarreling over religious ideas. I can’t remember many times when a person has changed his mind in a heated argument—and even when evidence is so overwhelming that it can’t be denied, the defeated person feels like a loser, and resents being beaten down. Latter-day Saints have an obligation to enlighten, not debate! If we expect others to listen to our beliefs respectfully, we must also listen to theirs in the same way. Too many times, even in friendly gospel discussions, Latter-day Saints seem to be listening to the other person only in order to think of some way to refute what he is saying. Actually, however, understanding what another person thinks is essential to helping him see something differently. We must not be too quick to contradict, or we will not be listened to, either!
President George Albert Smith, a man of unusual warmth and compassion, expressed very cogently the attitude we ought to take into a conversation with nonmembers: “We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you. We have not come to berate you because of things you have not done; but we have come here as your brethren. … We are asking [you] to keep all the glorious truths that you have acquired in your churches, that you have absorbed from your scriptures. … Then let us sit down and share with you some of the things that have not yet come into your lives that have enriched our lives and made us happy.†(Sharing the Gospel with Others, pp. 12–13, 217–19.)
5. We can be kind to representatives of other religions. Whether it is a Jehovah’s Witness at our door or a Hare Krishna at the airport or someone asking for donations on the street at Christmastime, we can think first, “If this were one of our Latter-day Saint missionaries, how would I want him to be treated?†Even if we refuse to listen to their message or donate to their cause, we can do so kindly and courteously. It may take us a few minutes more, but the result in happiness—both for us and for them—will be well worth the time.
6. Above all, in our dealings with nonmembers of the Church we can remember that they are no less children of our Father in heaven than we are. If we are to be judged according to how well we love our neighbor, we need to review who our neighbor is. In the Savior’s parable, it was not the priest or the Levite who was a true neighbor to the wounded Jew—it was the Samaritan, a member of a much-despised sect that did not believe the way the Jews did!
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the Universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; he views them as his offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men. … He will judge them, ‘not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,’ those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have law, will be judged by that law … [by] their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family.†(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 218.)
We Latter-day Saints, who have felt the pains of intolerance and persecution, have a great responsibility and opportunity to show to others our love and tolerance and respect to those who believe in other faiths. This attitude makes friends out of strangers, and it is among such friends that we find those who will embrace the gospel and join us on the road to eternal life.
I see nothing wrong with the Lord’s Prayer or reciting it. When I’ve attended other churches, I do avoid doing things like repeating the Nicene Creed, as obviously it isn’t something we believe in, but the Lord’s Prayer certainly doesn’t fall under that category.
I think Firebyrd makes an interesting point: there’s really not anything in the Lord’s prayer that Latter-day Saints don’t believe in. The Nicene Creed is something else entirely, however.
Depending on how you nuance it, the Nicene Creed of 325 is not out of line with LDS doctrine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed
Some things that may be misunderstood:
“being of one substance with the Father”. If you understand that to be “of the same _kind_ of substance”, then it’s not far off. They are both of glorified flesh/bone and glorified/deified spirit.
The word “catholic” is lower-case, and means “universal”, so we shouldn’t have a problem with that.
And in the 381 version, “was incarnate by the Holy Ghost” may cause some consternation, but that is right out of the New Testament.
“And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life”, is not too far out, because the Holy Ghost can “quicken” people and make people spiritually alive, so I don’t have a problem with that phrase.
I don’t have any problem with the Nicene Creed.
The Athanasian Creed
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
has a lot of double-speak, but I suppose you could even wade through it and nuance it too.
Bookslinger, I don’t disagree. I think that the modern-day interpretation of the Nicene Creed is the issue. “One substance” has been interpreted to mean that God is a Spirit and that three are one and that they are all spirits, but Jesus Christ was temporarily a human, etc. In some Catholic school in Brasil, for one example, kids sing “God is a Spirit, he doesn’t have a body.” I think this is the issue.
Good points about the Nicene Creed versus the Lord’s Prayer as far as doctrinal conflict. I admit I do mumble along with it, though. Bookslinger, though I agree that some reinterpretation can make it non-conflicted with LDS doctrine, I still tend to see it as containing some false doctrine unless such twisting is done. I still mumble along with it, though. I also don’t believe in the Hindu gods, but when visiting the Hari Krishna temple in Spanish Fork, Utah, I join in the little chanting thing. (Do they still do the dinner after their service for visitors on Sunday nights? It’s been years since I’ve been, but that was some tasty food.)
I’m totally curious (BTW I agree with the gist of the post, so this is meant as a lighthearted query and not an attack or attempt to undermine it):
Did the Presbyterian communuion you partake of have wine, and if so, how did you handle that?
Reciting the Lord’s Prayer? That one’s easy — to me, it is no different from singing our many hymns that are phrased as prayers (I’ll reference “Abide with Me” because it’s the first one alphabetically).
Reciting “the Lord’s Prayer” 9regardless of which version of the Bible it comes from) seems no different to me from singing hymns that are phrased as prayers — of which we have many, ‘Abide with Me” being the first one alphabetically in our the LDS hymnal.
I like the Lord’s Prayer. And like everyone else has said, it’s scripture — if you have a problem with reciting it, what do you think about our Sacrament meetings?
We had an investigator visit our Primary class three weeks ago (he’s been moved to the Valiant 9 class, because it’s just me and five little girls in our class, and he wasn’t particularly happy with that arrangement) who goes to St. Pious, down the road. He really wanted to do the opening prayer in our class, which resulted in an illuminating five minute discussion of the differences between Catholic and LDS prayer practices, and the difference between “that’s not what we do” and “that’s evil/wrong.” ^_^ Not something I normally get to do with 7-year-olds. I wish stuff like that happened more often.
(Also, the looks on the girls’ faces when he crossed himself were priceless. I don’t think they’ve ever seen someone do something like that in church before — and he does it every day in class, apparently, so he had no idea why they were weirded out. I honestly think we learned more that day than in the previous two weeks of lessons put together.)
Tanya, according to some analysis by an LDS blogger I read (forget the reference), the Latin version of the Nicene Creed is pretty much in line with LDS doctrine, without re-interpretation. So I like Geoff’s comment that the current understanding of the English version is what has been re-interpreted.
Perhaps the Council of Nicea was being intentionally political so that their product (the creed) could be interpreted differently among the many factions so that each felt that they got what they wanted. I’m sure that the Athanasian Creed was politically crafted due to it’s obvious double-speak.
There’s a scripture in the NT where Jesus says “My father and I are one”, but I’ve been told the original Greek doesn’t have the connotation that supports the 3-in-1 trinitarian concept. I’ve been led to believe that the Greek supports more the “one in purpose” or “of the same kind/category” or “looks alike” connotation.
I even suspect that the modern trinitarian concept has even evovled further than the 4th century concept.
So not only should we LDS be more tolerant of those who recite the Lord’s Prayer. We ought to be more charitable with Trinitarians due to the ease at which the KJV translation of the Bible can be used to support their understanding of the nature of the godhead.
When the true nature of Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (and whatever other deified beings there are), and the nature of eternity and immortality, and the nature of spirit-matter, are revealed to us in the next worlds, _all_ of us are going to be surprised and amazed. We LDS will (hopefully) easily, readily and thankfully give up our false notions upon receiving further light and knowledge. And the righteous people of all sects and creeds will do the same, perhaps uttering as we, “Oh! Very well. Now I know better. Cool.”
I think that ties into entering Heaven as a little child, eyes wide open in wonder and amazement, humbly accepting new things that we had no idea of, humbly realizing that the nature and attributes of Elohim and Jehovah are far beyond what we have been able to comprehend in mortality.
Our four canonized works of scripture are only a small glimpse, no more than a hint, seen through a heavily tinted glass window into what lies beyond.
So yes, let’s be charitable towards, and show brotherly kindness towards those who have only the Bible. That’s all that many people, including myself, had before finding the next three works of scripture. And I testify that the Bible eventually led me to the true church.
Ivan (#15), it was just grape juice. I remain undecided on what I would do if I do have that situation sometime in the future.
“When visiting other churches or other religions, I’m a when-in-Rome person.”
Agreed. I’ve begun attending the Shabbat Torah Study at a local synagogue, and I stand when they stand, recite the prayers with them, etc. As long as they find nothing offensive in me doing so, I prefer to join in.
Tanya, I have wondered myself what to do in just such situations. I am not sure what the right answer is. I do wonder if people misunderstand what is meant by vain prayers that are repettitve. This was addressed to the hypocrites who were praying with their lips with their hearts removed and doing it for show. I think a person can make up a flowery prayer that is done to show their skill as someone praying and yet not really mean it in their heart.
Many people have trouble with praying at meals or in public and it is not always easy to know what to say. We surely cannot expect originality across the board. There are only so many ways to be thankful at Church or for what we eat.
As a person raised in a different faith, I enjoyed the feeling that you get as you say a prayer as a community. We would sometimes have lessons in Religion to breakdown the Lord’s Prayer so we could better understand the meaning. If you think of the meaning of a prayer, then it would not seem to be to be vain.
That prayer is indeed the road map of how to pray.
I do believe I have heard prayers quoted in General Conference such as the prayer about being an instrument in the Lord’s hands.
Also, songs are said to be prayers to God and they are certainly set in verbiage.
Not knowing what to do with no official guidlines, I try to error on the side of what I am supposed to do and have been silent at times when the Lord’s prayer is said. I worry that I may be giving offence to others there needlessly. I wish I knew for sure what to do.
Well, I think this is about the two year anniversay of this blog. Happy Two Years. I’ve enjoyed reading. I think I said something stupid once like I was not looking for friends or anyting. Well, I didn’t want to appear to terribly pathetic. Really I do have friends as hard as that may be to imagine for some people. Fortunately, I have a lot of inhibitions that keep me in line in my interpersonal relations outside of the blogging community most of the time.
Tanya I did want to let you know that I have considered you a friend with the exchanges in the past on your posts.
And if I did not have a phobia of travel or eating around people or being in public in general, I would have loved to gone to one of the bloggersnackle doings.
But thanks for inviting me to the online party and apparently not banning me from the sight. Well, I hope I have not been that much of a nuisance. I do apologize for where I have errored. Okay, I will be quiet and scarce. But I do appreciate the thought that goes into the posts here.
Thanks for the kind words, Barb. Hopefully our paths will someday cross and we will someday meet.
Tanya, that is cool of you to say. Drop me a line if you are ever visiting Winter Quarters as that is near me.
Presbyterian’s have grape juice so when I go visit my mom’s church there is no conflict in taking the communion. And Tanya is right, in the Presbyterian Church they ask anyone and everyone to partake. However it is best to know what is acceptable because many places aren’t the same way. I was in a Catholic wedding once and because I was part of the wedding party I had to go up and bow to the alter and then go to the priest and sister holding the communion. I couldn’t take it though, I had to cross my arms over my chest and sort of bow. I was very thankful that this was all explained ahead of time.
I personally enjoy reciting those old prayers when I go to the family church. My oldest daughter knows them well too. I love to read them and break them apart as usually their meanings are great. The problem is when you forget the meaning and just recite.
I learned it because we said it each day in (public) school right after the national anthem. This was Canada in the 1980s, of course, not the U.S., where I’m sure things like that have been prohibited from public schools for a long time. (It’s not done in Canada anymore either, of course.)