Taken somewhat out of context, but it’s too good to pass up:
Sometimes, reading Tolkien, I am reminded of the Book of Mormon.
—Harold Bloom on The Lord of the Rings.
Discuss.
Taken somewhat out of context, but it’s too good to pass up:
Sometimes, reading Tolkien, I am reminded of the Book of Mormon.
—Harold Bloom on The Lord of the Rings.
Discuss.
I wonder what he found comparable between the two works. Maybe the wars?
I think it’s pretty well-established that Tolkein took some of his themes from the Bible and ancient literary traditions. The whole idea of the king who is lost but comes back, the apocalyptic good vs. evil battle, the idea of a “white wizard” who is good and uses magic (ie, “the priesthood.”) Many of these same themes are in the BoM precisely because those are the kinds of stories people heard in 600 BC and surely brought with them to the new world. And then people in the new world continued to be attracted to these themes because they have universal appeal.
I can’t remember the name of the essay, but Hugh Nibley once wrote an amazing article on how all literature tells the same stories over and over again with small twists. He surveyed all of the ancient stories, and they all seem to have similar themes, which are exactly the same themes that are in the Bible and the BoM. And of course many of the best stories today (including Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Eragon and even other more modern movies) have many of these same themes.
It’s found in music also. Richard Wagner used some of the same literary sources as Tolkien to construct “Der Ring des Nibelungen” (The Ring of the Nibelung), a cycle of four music-dramas which includes “Das Rheingold” (The Rhine Gold), “Die Walkuere” (The Valkyrie), “Siegfried”, and “Goetterdaemmerung” (The Twilight of the Gods).
It wasn’t LOTR’s epic themes and mythological echoes Bloom was objecting to, it was the author’s tone and style. Read the full passage here:
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/turgon/files/082300.html
Hmmmm, I’m not sure I see a comparison between the Book of Mormon and Tolkien’s works. The Book of Mormon’s main theme is vastly different than anything in Tolkien. For example, was there ever a time when the Nephites were righteous when war was brought on them by the Lamanites? It seems that what Mormon is conveying is that wars come about because of unrighteousness. The Lord lets the enemy at his people to chasten them when they stray from the path. This is not a theme in Tolkien. I’m not sure what, exactly, is Tolkien’s main theme (never thought deeply enough about it), except that battles did not come to the “good” people in Tolkien’s work when they strayed from the path, because, well, there is no God in Tolkien. Tolkien created a world, followed by hordes of other fantasy writers, in which you have an all powerful bad guy, a supernatural being with powers you can’t fully comprehend, save that he doesn’t seem to utilize those powers to his full potential, or the world would be in flames. In any case, where’s God in Tolkien? Who do the “good” people follow? Who directs them? What is their end goal? What is the purpose of their lives?
I understand the principle Nibley makes, but really, no other book that I know of shows that wars come to righteous people when they stray from the path, except the Book of Mormon.
Dave –
you had to go and give it away. I was hoping for some more fun with it before I linked to the full context (although the text you linked to omits Bloom’s reference to the reliance on KJV language).
Oh, well.
Yeah, Bloom was a Book of Mormon critic, no doubt… To the educated “Gentile”, however, I can see several parallels just off the top of my head: dozens of strange names, epic battles and war scenes, (towards the end of the Book of Mormon particularly, though in Alma somewhat as well) dastardly armies filled with nasty, nasty bad guys, moral and ethical overtones all over the place…
It’s not a bad comparison, though it does show Bloom’s true colors, statements about American Religious genius or whatever notwithstanding…
Re: God in Tolkien
In the LotR trilogy, there is no real mention of any god, but in the Silmarillion Tolkien discusses the Valar, who are basically gods, including the “Father of All”, Iluvatar. Some have even argued that Tom Bombadil may be one of the Valar, based on his power over the trees and the nonchalant manner in which he handles the One Ring (which Gandalf himself refused to even touch).
Yes, I am a LotR nerd.
No, I would not recommend reading the Silmarillion, unless you like reading endless lists of names (much like Deuteronomy and Numbers) and poetry written in Elvish or you have severe insomnia.
Yeah Capt. Obsidian, I’m not that big of a LOTR nerd. 😛
If I recall my history correctly Tolkien himself wasn’t a very religious guy. Am I right?
Dan, Tolkien hung out with CS Lewis and was a Catholic, pretty religious by all accounts.
Dan –
Tolkien was partly responsible for converting C.S. Lewis to Christianity, even though Lewis decided to go the Anglican route. But Tolkien was a fairly devout Catholic by all accounts.
thanks for the clarification. Just haven’t kept up on his life all that much.
#8. “In the LotR trilogy, there is no real mention of any god, but in the Silmarillion Tolkien discusses the Valar, who are basically gods, including the “Father of All”, Iluvatar.”
But Tolkien in his appendices to LotR touches on the earlier Ages of Middle Earth and discusses the Valar. The beginning of The Silmarillion which describes the Creation is mind-blowing.
I heart the Silmarillion greatly, and if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve already loaned it out to a friend, I’d let any of you borrow it anytime. It’s a far easier read than 2nd Nephi and Leviticus, and all three beat out all of Tolkein’s Elvish poetry hands down.
Hmmm…Wagner’s Ring and Tolkien’s LOTR are hardly even close.. to me anyway.
Wagner & Tolkien:
1.) same source material: Nibelungenlied, Norse Eddas and Sagas
Tolkien gets most of the dwarves’ names from The Elder Edda.
2.) a ring that gives one world domination and unlimited power
3.) a sword that was broken and is reforged
4.) a dragon is killed (OK, “The Hobbit”)
5.) a hero whose identity is hidden (Aragorn vs. Siegfried)
6.) dwarves, elves, etc.
I could go on but one of the best books that draws these parallels and many more is “Tolkien: A Look Behind The Lord of the Rings”, by Lin Carter, Ballantine Books, 1969.
Dan wrote: “The Lord lets the enemy at his people to chasten them when they stray from the path.”
Can/should we draw any parallels to 9/11/2001 ?
Dan also wrote: “… no other book that I know of shows that wars come to righteous people when they stray from the path, except the Book of Mormon.”
What about the Old Testament?
Bookslinger,
True, the Old Testament has those, but the authors of the books of the Old Testament do not highlight that point. Mormon makes it a point to highlight that wars come from straying from the path.
Dan,
Have you read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Ezra, or Daniel lately? Those authors, and Moses himself, drive the point home.
Here’s a quick synopsis:
Moses: “This is what’s going to happen if you sin.”
Isaiah: “You’ve sinned. Now this is going to happen if you don’t repent.”
Jeremiah: “Too late. You had your chance, now this is going to happen.”
Ezekiel/Ezra/Daniel: “We sinned. We broke the law of Moses, we ignored Isaiah and the other prophets, and all these bad things happened because of our transgressions. We deserved it.”
So can anyone NOT draw a connection between Gordon B. Hinckley saying that the United States had surpassed the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah, and then we got attacked on our own soil by those who want to destroy our country?
Can anyone NOT bring to mind the prophet’s quote “In all tragedies, the innocent suffer along with the wicked” ?
Those who say that the victims on 9/11/2001 were innocent are missing the point. God doesn’t necessarily punish individuals, he also punishes countries and societies. We have all suffered since 9/11. We have suffered a loss of our freedoms. We have all suffered financially. We continue to suffer the loss of more innocent lives as our soldiers die in the war on jihadism.
9/11 illustrates the prophet’s quote about the innocent suffering for the sins of the wicked. Innocent children died in Noah’s flood and in Sodom and Gomorrah. Just as innocent children died in the seiges on ancient Israel by Assyria and Babylonia. Innocents suffer and die in every war, whether it’s a “good” war or not.
But I think Jerry Fallwell was very closely echoing a Biblical and a Book of Mormon principle when he stated that God had removed his hand of protection from our country on 9/11/2001, and that it was mainly due to our collective sins.
That prayer by Rev Joe Wright at the opening of the Kansas legislature
(http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/wright.asp), pretty much hits the nail on the head, and that prayer was given in 1996. It’s the one that includes “We have endorsed perversion and called it an alternative lifestyle.”
Bookslinger, you’ve stepped in it now. Definitely not politically correct on the Bloggernacle to have anything but scorn for Jerry Falwell and is ilk, even if he occasionally says things that are true.
I don’t care about the content of what Falwell said. I might even privately agree with it. Or not. Whatever.
What I object to is that he’s not a prophet, and he had no authority to say it. The end.
Seth R, agreed.