A reader sent this in to us.
Check out the Utah organization using ‘Narnia’ to bring together
evangelicals and their Mormon neighbors.
http://www.standingtogether.org/
Quotation:
The following is a list of requirements to receive your 2 free tickets:
* You must be 18 years of age
* You must be an evangelical christian or a latter day saint
* If you are a evangelical christian, you must bring as your second ticket a latter day saint.
* If you are a latter day saint, you must bring as your second ticket a evangelical christian.
* Tickets will be abailable at will call starting at 6:15, and will be released after 6:45 to the stand-by list.
* Each set of friends will be given a page of questions to be discussed following the screening of the film and a survey card to be mailed back to Standing Together telling us your thoughts of the experience
Looks like a good thing to me, unless the questions are highly skewed. This is the group that Robert Millet co-presents with, so I doubt they’d be that way, but you never know.
Standing Together’s ultimate goal is to see the LDS Church cave in to evangelical pressure and drop its unique beliefs, eventually becoming evangelical Christians. This is exactly what happened to the Worldwide Church of God, a victory evangelicals are quite proud of. In fact, WWCG Pastor General Joseph Tkach Jr. was sitting on the stand during Ravi Zacharias’ recent address in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, a trophy of the evangelical victory over a formerly-heretical religion.
Robert Millet should reexamine his relationship with Greg Johnson, and all Latter-day Saints should be wary of evangelical outreach efforts. There is a subtle agenda behind them.
It all sounded warm and fuzzy to me until I read, on their About Us page, that founder Greg Johnson is a former Mormon.
Mike, the Wikipedia article made it seem like the evangelical transformation of the WWCG was a good thing.
But I still can’t fault the Standing Together group for “secretly” wanting to convert us to their beliefs. After all, Mormons hope that others would convert to our beliefs, and collectively, as a church and as individuals, we spend hundreds of millions of dollars annually on just that. 51,000 missionaries x $500/month x 12months/year = $306,000,000/year.
The issue points out that there are many ways of being good neighbors, engaging in good causes, and being friendly/respectful with our neighbors of other faiths. Those are the goals stated in the scriptures and by the prophet.
Um . . .
http://www.standingtogether.org/sof.html
Hmmmm, sounds really fishy to me…this could be the worst case of ‘Wolf in Sheeps Cloting’ ever witnessed by LDS….
Greg Johnson = Amalickiah!!
Standing Together = Amalickiahites!!
Scarry parallels…
Why is this Greg Johnson not a member anymore? Apostasy, broke commandments, offended at some “wintry doctrine”, bad home teachers? these are the more interesting questions…
I remember there was some discussionof elective VBAC’s not long ago. I didn’t realize at the time that there was a Narnia connection. Which book does that happen in? I must have missed that part.
On the other hand outreach can be good. I think building common ground, as Pres. Hinkley has done, really can bring about both better understanding and also conversions. Of course I think the conversions will go the other way… (grin)
But I do think that especially in Utah there is still far too much of a divide between Mormons and non-Mormons at times.
Of course I also recognize the danger of “outreach” programs that end up being more than that.
Mike, of course there is a hidden agenda. It’s a religious group for crying out loud! The Mormons typically have a hidden agenda too. Every time we throw a community outreach service project there’s an underlying hope that they’ll see us more positively and therefore be easier to convert.
So we can just go to the movie secretly hoping to convert our evangelical friends and they can go secretly hoping to convert us, and we’ll all be perfectly happy. We may even become friends as a side-effect. Some might convert either way. Whichever it is, I hope they get the religion they’re most happy with.
It seems like a pretty harmless activity to me. After all, it’s not like they outnumber us or anything.
Seth: After all, it’s not like they outnumber us or anything.
Outside of Utah they do. Or was that meant to be sarcastic?
When I heard about this I felt a little ambushed, or at least that I was being targeted and would be walking into a situation designed to challenge my beliefs. It sounds that some of the previous posters also feel challenged. My second reaction, though, was that this is just how one might feel getting invited over for family home evening. I think it is useful to know what it feels like to be the target of an outreach program. Personally, I am less interested in the specific group or the free ticket to ‘Narnia’ than the questoin: How will the awareness of how it feels change the way I try to proclaim the gospel?
Let’s face it folks. Evangelicals believe us to be the enemy. They openly charge us with heretical beliefs and being Satan’s tool. There is only ONE way for them to change their mind and that is to acknowledge that Christ’s teachings, as revealed by the Prophet Joseph, are true. Doing so would admit that they were wrong all along and that THEY had been teaching false doctrine. That will not happen enmasse and no “movement” will bring Mormons and Evangelicals together. There is no middle ground acceptable to both at least on ecclesiastical matters. This thing Greg Johnson has concocted is a proselyting mission. As a former member he fits perfectly the saying that “You can leave the Church but you can’t leave it alone”. I do not know Johnson or his background. But I have seen others who seek common ground with the Church or members as a way of proving the Church was wrong in taking thier membership. It is an attempt to get affirmation by showing good works rather than acknowledging thier wrongs, humbling themselves and working thier way back into fellowship. Members who get sucked into such things are walking on dangerous ground. It is dangerous because the enemy is laying in wait to snap up the unwary, weak or unknowing.
How do you know if you are one of the weak, unwary or unknowing? I suggest that if your first thought on reading this post brings up feelings of anger, resentment or some other negative emotion you may be a visceral decision maker rather than a prayerful one and particularly susceptible to deception. There is only one way to navigate such a morass and that is to follow the Prophet. Ask President Hinckley or the one of the Bretheren.
JLF, while some Evangelicals do that, not all do.
One thing I do truly worry about is that we tend to paint a pictures of Evangelicals based upon those who act harshly towards us. Certainly there are many who do. But I’m not at all convinced they even make up the majority.
Quandmeme has it right. This group is trying to do to us what we do to everyone else, convert people. And one doesn’t have to participate in their joint movie-viewing, or any other project, to contemplate what it would feel like to be “targeted for conversion.”
And quandmeme is right that we should contemplate that, and let it influence how we go about our proselyting efforts. Let us be loving, kind, humble, meek, respectful, etc. to those of other faiths as we go about the business of proclaiming and teaching the true restored gospel, and inviting literally everyone to investigate it and participate in it.
We have 51,000 full-time missionaries, and tens of thousands of ward-missionaries, and hopefully many times more member-missionaries. Therefore, how we make people feel when we proselyte is quite important.
Truly loving and caring about people is the proper motivation, so we don’t come across as “targeting.” This has been on my mind a lot, because I usually approach people several times a week.
JLF: They openly charge us with heretical beliefs and being Satan’s tool.
Latter-day Saints have done and still do the same thing to them. Lot’s of times, including Joseph Smith’s account of the first vision (their creeds are an abomination) and the parts of the Book of Mormon where it says there are only two churches, the true church and the church of the devil.
OF COURSE Latter-day Saints should be wary of the efforts of churches to convert us. But we need to be polite about it, because we’re trying to do the same thing to them, convert them to our beliefs. Or rather, guide or lead them to the point where the Holy Ghost can convert them.
JLF: There is no middle ground acceptable to both at least on ecclesiastical matters.
As a convert who originally spent some time in evangelical and fundamentalist churches I can say that’s pure baloney.
There are plenty of basic gospel principles that overlap, starting out that we both preach Christ as the son of God, who paid the price of all mankind’s sins. There’s lots where we disagree. But finding the overlap is a teaching technique, like Ammon telling Lamoni that God is “The Great Spirit” in Alma chapter 18.
Finding the overlap also shows our evangelical friends that they DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT have to give up their basic beliefs in Christ in order to accept the fullness of the restored Gospel.
Finding that the important basics overlap is one way to show them that we extend what they already believe, and that we don’t negate it.
The commonly held belief among rank-and-file evangelicals is that we don’t believe in Christ, or in the same Christ, is a fallacy that is foisted upon them by their “cultwatch consultants” and anti-mormons.
Of all the Christian denominations, Evangelicalism is probably the closest one doctrinally to LDS beliefs, because they already believe in gifts of the Spirit, such as revelation, and that the Holy Ghost can guide someone on a daily basis.
Once you get past the false assumptions (on both sides) of the “faith versus works” argument, you’ll also find out that evangelicals and LDS are not really far apart at all on that subject.
JLF: It is dangerous because the enemy is laying in wait to snap up the unwary, weak or unknowing.
That’s true of any religious discussion with anyone of any other church. Members who are weak in the faith, or don’t know the answers to the common anti-mormon charges probably shouldn’t engage in gospel discussions with those who are trying to convert them.
I agree with you that the “Standing Together” organization is trying to convert Mormons to their beliefs. But I disagree with you that that is in and of itself an evil thing. And the reason is that we are also trying, or at least hoping, to convert them.
Here’s just the one thing that often bothers me about LDS criticism of these kind of things: this is exactly what we do. We try and get nonmembers to come to “fun” dances, ward barbecues, et cetera, all with the eventual goal of sharing the gospel. Worst case, we show them what we’re about and build a positive relationship with someone, even if it doesn’t result in baptism. I think we need to be willing to attend the religious services and events of others when an invitation is proffered, if only because refusing to do so makes it impossible for others to accept our own invitations.
As for this specific group, they clearly disagree with us. So does nearly everyone else in Christendom. I agree with most of what bookslinger had to say on this subject and worry that excessive paranoia about people “trying to convert us” could significantly get in the way of missionary work.
Off to Owen Field! BOOMER SOONER!
Re: #8
By definition, they won’t outnumber us.
They’re supposed to bring a Mormon, and the Mormon is supposed to bring an evangelical. 50-50 ratio as I see it.
And yes, it was a tad sarcastic.
#4 a coward in anonymous clothing says…
“Why is this Greg Johnson not a member anymore? Apostasy, broke commandments, offended at some “wintry doctrine”, bad home teachers? these are the more interesting questions…”
perhaps he never had a testimony. perhaps he got frustrated with the institutional church which led to a losing faith in other things. maybe God has a different plan for him. maybe Mormonism is false. maybe he’s secretly being an evangelical to bridge mormon and evangelical relations to eventually win over evangelicals to mormonism.
i’ve met greg johnson on a few occasions and find him to be very kind and caring. i’m sure he wants to convert mormons to a more traditional christianity, but he is also wanting to build bridges of friendship and dialogue between the two groups and seeing frienship and community before conversion… something many latter-day saints and missionaries could learn to do.
ignorant and hateful comments such as this only cause division and hatred. there is a lot we can learn from our brothers and sisters of different faiths. i’m sorry, but mormonism doesn’t lay claim to all ‘truth’
oh yeah, i think this narnia idea is great. if i had the time away from school (and a close evangelical friend), i’d definitely sign up.
Book Slinger: You sound like a true Evangelical. If you are LDS you are the guy I was talking about.
JLF
Book Slinger: You sound like a true Evangelical. If you are LDS you are the guy I was talking about.
JLF
Clark Gobel: Please be aware that my earlier post was in reference to ecclesiastical matters. That means on matters of substance the Evangelical hierarchy believe and teach these things and have not, in deed can not, modify their believe system without tacitly admitting they were wrong. This is not going to change in any substantive way. They have too much riding on it. #1. Making substantive changes opens them up to criticism from within their own power base. The power base is the money generating membership. I suggest there are ministries too numerous to mention that have as their primary reason for existanse, the destruction of the Church, mass “exposure” of our leadership and conversion of the membership. I am not denying that there are many honest Evangelicals who find such programatic assaults on our Church to be indefensible. But friend, this is not the official position of the Evangelical churches.
#2. These Evangelicals do not exist in a vaccum. They have institutions to feed and care for such as universities, retirement centers, missionaries in the field, TV stations, movie companies and real estate empires dependant on the success of their ecclesiastical endeavors. Changing any substantial doctrinal position calls into question the truths used to sell and support these other enterprises. Their supports have become stakeholders.
Undestand that this is much more than merely accommodating an indivdual Morman friend or family. This is the center pole in their thier revival tent. Mormons have openly said and do say “God says you are teaching false doctrine and should stop and come follow us.” There is absolutley no way they can accommodate such a thing. Let’s face it: We have laid the gauntlet down. This really is a fight between God and Satan. They believe the same. Are there gray areas where indivduals can accommodate one another? Sure. But no matter what, in the end it is a matter of them or us. If the goal is living with Heavnly Father or living without Him there can be no other way. God says so. We either convert them here or there is hell to pay on the other side gray areas not withstanding. Some will cricise this hellfire-and-brimstone, black-and-white approach as part of the problem. I suggest it bottom lines it. We need some clarification here. Don’t confuse style with substance.
JLF, in your comment #19, the one thing I agree with you on is that the evangelical hierarchy is not likely to change because they have too much riding on it. (I’ll ignore your gratuitous remarks in #17 & #18.)
Perhaps you’re role-playing in all this. It’s hard for me to believe your rhetoric is serious.
As I understand the church’s missionary efforts (regardless of the level), the church does not target organizations for conversion. The church, or rather missionaries and other church representatives approache individuals, families, or groups of individuals.
If/when evangelicals convert to the restored gospel (and we hope, in a righteous way, that they do) it will be one by one, with personal and individual commitments, just like when anyone converts.
I strongly disagree with some of your statements:
JLF: Mormons have openly said and do say “God says you are teaching false doctrine and should stop and come follow us.”
Some Mormons may have said that in the past, but successful missionaries probably haven’t said things like that. Indeed, President Hinckley has reminded us to not be negative or confrontational when sharing the gospel with others. He has pointed out that we don’t need to tear down others’ beliefs, but rather that we should put forth our own in a positive manner.
JLF: “This really is a fight between God and Satan. They believe the same. … But no matter what, in the end it is a matter of them or us.”
That is hardly the proper framework for sharing the gospel.
I think you are role-playing; perhaps a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
JLF, what is “the Evangelical hierarchy”?
Loyd: The Evagelical hierarchy are the generally accepted Evangelical elites. Those who lead and set the Evangelical agenda.
Bookslinger: I could not be more serious. However, let me be clearer. My focus is not on missionaries or missionary work. Go back and re-read what I wrote. If you have any doubt about my quote re-read Brigham Young. Is this forum not for discussing serious meat issues? There is a clear seperation between missionary discussions and those that happen here. When the First Presidency gives it’s blessing to the Greg Johnson thing then I will accept it at face value. But as of this writing I don’t think they have. The fact that brother Millet is involved makes it interesting but not conclusive. Brother Millet is not a general authority. Until that happens we should be civil and courteous but wary. Don’t be the last to know it is an ambush.
I think the discussion is getting off point. If the subject is that members should knowingly participate in a ecclesiastical event sponsored by Evangelicals then my message is to be wary. Such things are aimed at making inroads with you and chipping away at your faith. That, in my opinion and experince, is the only reason they have them. It is folly and fool hardy to think otherwise given the history of our relationship them.
“When the First Presidency gives it’s blessing…”
Is it necessary that our church leaders hold our hands through everything? President Hinckley said that he had confidence in the leaders of our nation. Look what happened there.
Let’s pretend that Greg Johnson and his crew are merely using this as a guise to convert Mormons. Why are you worried? If the possibility exists that evangelical Christianity is the way to go, shouldn’t we explore it? If there is no possibility, do we have anything to fear? If there is no possibility, but some Mormons find it convincing enough that they have leave Mormonism (let’s say that they even have ‘spiritual experiences’ that add to their reason to leave), is God going to be so legalistic and uncaring that He will condemn them for doing the studying and spiritual exploration he demands that led them that way?
I don’t live in Utah, but I have a child who is attending a non-LDS college in Utah. What I heard just today is “I’m never going to live in Utah!” Although college life has been a good experience, being in the LDS climate of Utah has not. What I’ve been told is that there’s a huge division between LDS and non-LDS, and that the non-LDS find LDS to be arrogant.
I have no personal experience to either ratify nor reject this perception.
But after reading this thread, I can see part of the reason why some people feel that way. What I’m hearing is that somehow when we proselytize and do things with at least the partial aim of seeing others converted, that’s good; but when somebody who has a different theology does the same thing, that’s somehow sneaky. What I’m hearing is that non-LDS are not to be trusted. What I’m hearing is a holier-than-thou attitude.
No, I’m not hearing that from everybody. But I’m hearing it from enough people that I can see why non-LDS might be put off.
Re #25:
Well, that assumes that the commenters in question are from Utah.
Dad:
In the State of Idaho, until just recently, it was illegal for anyone who believed in eternal marriage to vote. My grandmother was denied the right to attend school in Emmett Idaho because she was a Mormon. There have been countless other abuses perpetrated on us beause of our faith. Not back east but here in the intermountain west. Not 150 years ago but on going today. Even today in many parts of the country an LDS member is discriminated against because of faith. Who does the discriminating? Evangelicals amongst others. I suggest it is primarily Evangelicals. You don’t hear Catholics or Jews singling Mormons out. They have also been abused because of thier faith. By whom you ask? Evangelicals. Dad, if you live in a part of the country where members are not discriminated against and whose faith is accepted just as readily as anyone else’s then you do indeed live in a fine area. But I’ll bet you a dollar to a donut hole you don’t have whole organizations devoted just to destroying you and what you believe in. You think all that went away when we moved out west? It goes on today. In many organizations, such as Idaho State government, if you are a Mormon some Evangelical supervisors will not hire you. They will not consider you for promotion. Many top jobs in State government are out of reach if you are a Mormon. How do they know? Your attendance at a Church school or two years away on a mission are dead give aways. This is not a quid pro quo thing brought on by some Mormon abuse some where else. Sir, this is an ugly part of the Evangelical present day. And now they want to do what? They want to buy us a movie ticket? Sounds suspiciously like more of the same just wrapped up in different colored paper. Is it a two way street? NO! No because it is institutionalized. That means it is official doctrine and policy. We do not have as a tenet of our belief that Baptists or anyone else are evil doing minions of Satan. Go into a Southern Baptist sanctuary and you will find such hand outs as “Freed From the Mormon Clutch”. Open a website and read what they say about us there. Talk to their leadership. Ask them if our faith is Christian. Recently they wouldn’t even invite us to participate in a National Day of Prayer. In fact we were invited and then uninvited. Do you think all that can be made up for by buying us a movie ticket? Is it a start? No. Nothing is a start until the national leadership says it is time to mend thier ways. It is not a start because localised grass roots movements have no say with the national in doctrinal matters. It will be a start when the national organizations say it is a start. The only reason a national will sanction a raprochment is for missionary work amongst us. You don’t believe me? Ask them. Send an email to Focus on the Family or Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson or Fuller Theogical Seminary or The Southern Baptist Convention. Sure there are some people amongst those organizations who disagree. But in doctrinal matters they do not speak for the organization. That does not mean though that we should be hostile to individual Evangelical neighbors. Quite the contrary. None of my remarks in this thread are intended to be hostile to just plain people. My remarks are focused on the on-going assault on our Church by Evangelical organizations. I suggest every sanctioned Evangelical event aimed at us should be met with skeptism until the national organizations acknowledge they have treated us shabbily and want to change their wicked ways. But, in the mean time, we should treat them with fairness, dignity and consideration. Just be aware.
My PhD advisor is an evangelical. Her husband (an elder in his church), who is also on my PhD committee, is an evangelical. They frequently witness to others (a few years ago, at Christmas, they took the entire lab to lunch and after we ate, witnessed to everyone). She knows I’m LDS. Know what? We get along fine. It’s not been an issue.
I’m sorry for the problems JLF has run into. But I actually *LIVE* today in the heart of Evangelical-land. Sure, there have been a few idiots in the Evangelical (and Mormon) communities who pop off once in awhile. And I can say that in business, in academia, in the community, it’s a non-issue.
By the way, I challenge the first sentence in #27 and ask for a source.
Re Mormons voting in Idaho. I believe he is referring to the former provision of the Idaho Constitution that forbade from voting those believing or being “celestially married” [or words to that effect]. It was repealed in 1982. See http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/geog/rrt/part3/chp6/49.htm and http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/plural_marriage/Legislation_EOM.htm The second source states that the courts interpreted the provision to permit monogamous Mormons to vote.
JLF: None of my remarks in this thread are intended to be hostile to just plain people.
I’m glad your intentions are not hostile, because your words appeared to be. I think your “wicked ways” remark below may come across as hostile. I think your previous remarks “This really is a fight between God and Satan” and “…in the end it is a matter of them or us” might be considered hostile.
The overall tone of your comments seems to come across as a bit hostile. So I’m glad that you didn’t really intend them that way.
JLF: I suggest every sanctioned Evangelical event aimed at us should be met with skeptism until the national organizations acknowledge they have treated us shabbily and want to change their wicked ways. But, in the mean time, we should treat them with fairness, dignity and consideration. Just be aware.
Matthew 5:44:
“…bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”
God bless the Evangelicals, JLF, but you sound like you sure could use a hug. {{{{{{{{{JLF}}}}}}}}}
Student’s Dad (#25): I got somewhat of the same impression during my brief sojourn in Provo Utah. But it has since been tempered by someone telling me that “by definition, the outliers stand out more.” Those who are the farthest from the mean, especially on the negative side, catch our attention more, and appear to be more numerous than they really are.
I’ve been somewhat prejudiced by having an anti-Utah outlook, and I need to repent of it.
Every area of the church has it’s pros and cons.
Except Indianapolis, which in my experience was uniformly great. (grins)
queuno: Until 1972 it was in the criminal code. If you have access to section 18 it is in there.
So #30 and #34, you are saying that practicing LDS did not vote until 1972? I’m not so much concerned about what happened in 1890 or what may have been “on the books”. [Remember, there have been extermination orders against Mormons until recently but they weren’t enforced.]
I do not believe the proscription was enforced after the Manifesto.
I think the more interesting observation is that movie going for Christians is an experience rather than entertainment(not sure of other religious people acting the way Christians do at the movies). It has happened with every specifically targeted Christian themed movie that has made it big; Left Behind, Lord of the Rings (to a lesser degree), The Passion, and now Narnia. So, to follow in theory, if you want to make a succesful movie aimed toward a Christian audience than you have to market it as experiencial rather than entertaining.