30 thoughts on “Matt’s Monday Morning Millennial Star Question: Shunning”
How ironic. That very subject came up with our home teacher just last night. (Are you my home teacher?) He was sure that shunning was an LDS doctrine. I told him that I was sure it was not a scriptural principle, but rather that the idea is borrowed from folks’ protestant backgrounds, a false doctrine that has crept in to the church by habit.
After he left, I looked it up. If you put “shun” into the search the scriptures feature at lds.org, you come up with a handful of names that start with “shun”, and a single reference in the New Testament about a specific personal behavior (“vain babblings”) that needs to be avoided, but not about people.
On the other hand, ample verses come up from a search on “cut off”. With most of them, it is the Lord who will do the cutting, but there are several that are instructions to the church.
THe JW’s are well-known for their shunning. My understanding (which is mainly based on reading this book by the JW-equivalent of an apostle) is that the practice stems from verses like 1 Cor. 5:11- “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person.”
No
I think John, that excommunication (being cut-off) is typically different from shunning, since one still wants people to return.
I have chosen to shun my brother because he is a sociopathic pedophile. He is extremely manipulative. I am afraid that if I open communication with him, I will allow myself to be talked into allowing him in our home. Which opens the possibility of his abusing someone I love. The possibility of damage to my daughters and grandchildren is too great.
I agree Clark, the intent of excommunications (in most instances) are that of repentance. It is less common now that even 20 years ago, but I know several people that were excommunicated, still came to church for a year and were rebaptised.
It may not be doctrine but it’s practiced by far too many members. Our subtle actions of exclusion or inclusion for example. Or how you treat, or don’t treat the person next to you on the pew, who smells of smoke, or came in blue jeans and tennis shoes.
Don, agreed. It’s worth reminding ourselves that the Savior would see beyond our worldly appearance, and we should strive to do so as well.
Don, I agree, but I’d add that this sort of behavior is consistently condemned by the prophets.
With regards to the earlier comment (#6), I think there is a huge difference between being protective and shunning. Some people are dangerous and being careful isn’t the same as shunning.
Clark, I don’t see why you seem averse to the idea the need to protect can justify shunning.
For my part, I’m averse to coming up with some kind of hard and fast rule to allow for shunning or not. That turns our obligation to provide fellowship into a complicated game of casuistry. The Mormon instinct to shun usually occurs for the following (rather deplorable) reasons:
1. They don’t see a socially graceful way to include someone
2. They feel the need to make an example of someone
Remember, Christ ate lunch with publicans, while the “righteous” watched in dismay.
That’s not really my point DKL. I think shunning implies something more than just the intent of protecting. That’s all I’m saying. I agree that there’s probably a class of events which we simply can’t distinguish based only upon the visible actions. What counts are the intents – and those are often hard to know.
Shunning like the JW do is extreme and not supported by the BODY of the NT or the LDS Canon. When I read the opening line of this post this is what came to mind.
We do not “shun” excommunicated members we still love them and wish to see them back in full fellowship.
I have seen pedophiles forbidden from entering church buildings though. There are some extrem cases where maybe it is wise to avoid certain people engaging in dangerous or destructive behavior.
Matt needed to open this up with some more specific examples of what he means by “shunning”. When people read the word they put their own spin on it. To me the JW come to mind right away.
I have shunned people from time to time. A former bishop, who was the husband of my neighbor, kicked my daughter and I shunned him for a year. Then we made up and it’s a long story.
I’ve never been told to shun anybody, in fact, I’ve been told that I’m wrong when I get mad and shun people.
I’m now shunning a guy who wanted to be the bishop and threw a big fit. I’m speaking to him, but in my heart, I’m shunning him.
“in my heart, I’m shunning him”
I love it. So AnneGB!
I think ‘shunning’ would be appropriate where it would lead to unacceptable risks of falling into temptation, either by ourselves or by impressionable persons for whom we are responsible. In other words, where its really ‘protection.’
You’ve probably seen T-shirts and emails with the humerous explanation of religions based on variations of the expression “s*** happens.” The original list I saw had “Mormonism: S*** happens over and over.” I suppose that was a rather unfunny reference to polygamy. More recently, I’ve seen a variation that reads, “Mormonism: If s*** happens, shun it.”
I’m a bit puzzled by this. I know some former members may feel that they’ve been shunned, but it’s odd that someone would identify “shunning” as the (or even a) defining characteristic of our religion. There are numerous positive and negative characteristics are commonly used to stereotype Mormons, but I didn’t know that “shunning” was one of them. Did someone just get us confused with some other religion like the Amish or Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Maybe they just wanted to get shunning in there somewhere and Mormonism seemed like a good place to hang it. But I would think if you want the list to be amusing, it should make use of actual beliefs, practices or at least common stereotypes.
Maybe “S*** happens and we can trace its genealogy”
Ok, just so I can get a handle on what you mean by shun…
Trekkies know that Klingons will ‘vote’ by turning their back to (and never again interact with) someone who is deemed dishonorable.
Is this what you mean by shunning?
I have to agree with #6 – don’t put loved ones in danger just to appease a sinner.
Economically I think we even have the option to not buy from, nor sell to, ‘sinners’. Surely boycotts are ok and if boycotts are ok, then so is refusing to sell to an identified sinner. I do think it is wrong to refuse to interact with a class or group of people, but not individuals who have done harm.
I, for one, am very grateful that this Church heals instead of shuns. This is a timely thread for me because yesterday was an anniversary of my disciplinary council. The love I received after my sins were known was key in opening my heart to healing. How could we ask someone to repent alone?
I think that perhaps Mormons go to other Mormons first for a lot of socialization. That tends to make people who aren’t an active part of the ward feel excluded, whether it is intentional or not. It certainly isn’t shunning. But I think we’re so busy with our ward activities and families that others feel like they are being shunned, even if they aren’t.
Thoughts on #19…
I think that church members subconciously exclude those who do not have lifestyles like theirs. That includes non-members and “not like them” members.
When I first moved to TGSOT, my wife and I were fairly newlyweds (less than a year, more than 6 months) and were living in a ward where we were the only non-pregnant and childless couple in the ward. Needless to say, we were “ignored” by the ward (stuffed into a ward missionary role, probably because we were both RMs and closer in age to the actual missionaries than anyone else in the ward). Our annual salary during my internship was less than what some of these people paid for automobiles.
Our social life quickly became surrounded by “work”, not “Church”. A move back to Happy Vally-Provo to finish up and then a return to TGSOT landed us, temporarily, back in the same ward. No one realized we had been gone for 10 months! And still, our social life revolved around the non-member work compatriots (who looked at us as the “odd” couple who were married).
It took a couple of job changes, a move into a house, and about 4 ward splits in 5 years before we found that our circle of immediate friends included ward members. But still, ward members don’t know how to deal with us when we mention non-MBA grad school experiences (“I thought everyone finished grad school in 3 years” was an actual quote), my wife’s business she’s built from the ground up (“oh you work, how interesting”), and our 8-year-old daughter’s stated desire to go to medical school (“oh, she’ll get married long before that!”), or my oft-stated stance that a golfing activity does NOT constitute an inclusive elders quorum activity.
Sometimes, I find myself shunning them…
Hey you had a one up on me queuno…they just don’t give us callings (our situation sounds very similar to yours…though I don’t know what TGSOT is…and we’ve never been to utah). I haven’t had a calling in 2 years. The only think I can figure is the lack of kids. Dunno…we move alot and I’ve tried to remind myself these people aren’t intentionally being rude…they really do mean well. Sometimes members just build such a bubble for themselves to live in they don’t really know how to interact with those who are different in any way. It is very discouraging when the elders quorum pres sees you in the grocery store and asks if your inactive…when you’ve been there ever sunday. And when the RS presidency asks if Im new to the ward after I’ve been there for 6 months… But, Im trying to take a page out of PRes. Hinckley’s book and stay positive! I think if I go much longer with out a calling I may just go talk to the bishop (he prolly doesn’t even know who I am). \
I really don’t have an issue with my social circle not revolving around the ward though, I don’t really need that to keep my testimony, and I have nothing in common with those in my ward. We have a great group of friends who are like family and we have lots of opportunities for sharing the gospel, so its great.
Another Julie,
Sorry to hear that you are disappointed. You dont need a calling to study the scriptures, go to the temple, fast, do geneology work, not get tattoos, visit families, give money to the Perpetual Opportunity Offerings, go on visits with the missionaries if you live in the mission field, make food for the Activities Committee and to sing in the Choir. There is more that we must do, those are just a few. There is much to do without a calling, you should enjoy those things. You will get kids in the next life if you do everything good. I will fast for you. Love, LBJ
Great idea, LBJ! I will join with your fast and pray that Another Julie might get a calling she can magnify to the blessing of her ward and stake so that Zion’s curtain may be enlarged and the people of the earth mightily blessed. Maybe the M* family could join in a special day of fasting tohelp Julie. What do you say, guys?
I just talked to my home teachers when they were over here. They dont use the internet much so I told them about the Millenial Star. They said that you should not ask for callings so maybe Another Julie shouldn’t ask Heavenly Father for a calling but we could ask Heavenly Father for her and they said that would be ok. I think a special fast would be great. We could do it together and the Holy Ghost will help the Bishop to tell her what calling she should have.
Oh. My. Heck. My home teachers were just here too. They were about to give their pre=planned lesson about following the Prophet when the brother giving the lesson stopped mid-sentence and said he felt inspired to give a lesson about callings. He said it was a symbol of pride to seek for callings or to be released and that we should never refuse a calling or ask to be released because our leadersa are inspired to call or not to call us to serve wherever we may be needed and it is not our place to question. What are the odds that two independent sets of home teachers would be inspired to give the same counsel on the same day Another Julie posted her innermost thoughts on M*. The church is true and this proves it. Please, everybody fast for Another Julie.
Excellent queuno,
The church is a lifestyle in and of itself. While it may be difficult to adjust sometimes, perseverence like yours can help us overcome the one track culture.
Wow you guys I have to say Im really blown away. Thank you sooooo much 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 Really I should be more proactive also, Im kinda an introvert…so I tend to allow myself to go unnoticed. I can’t tell you how much it means to me that you are willing to fast for a total stranger.
(((((((Another Julie)))))))
We are not longer strangers. Have a great Sabbath.
We are No longer strangers, sorry about the typing mistake.
Another Julie,
If you don’t have a calling and think the bishop may not be aware of that, you should definitely tell him you’d like to serve. It’s probably just slipped off his to-do list and he just needs reminding.
How ironic. That very subject came up with our home teacher just last night. (Are you my home teacher?) He was sure that shunning was an LDS doctrine. I told him that I was sure it was not a scriptural principle, but rather that the idea is borrowed from folks’ protestant backgrounds, a false doctrine that has crept in to the church by habit.
After he left, I looked it up. If you put “shun” into the search the scriptures feature at lds.org, you come up with a handful of names that start with “shun”, and a single reference in the New Testament about a specific personal behavior (“vain babblings”) that needs to be avoided, but not about people.
On the other hand, ample verses come up from a search on “cut off”. With most of them, it is the Lord who will do the cutting, but there are several that are instructions to the church.
THe JW’s are well-known for their shunning. My understanding (which is mainly based on reading this book by the JW-equivalent of an apostle) is that the practice stems from verses like 1 Cor. 5:11- “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person.”
No
I think John, that excommunication (being cut-off) is typically different from shunning, since one still wants people to return.
I have chosen to shun my brother because he is a sociopathic pedophile. He is extremely manipulative. I am afraid that if I open communication with him, I will allow myself to be talked into allowing him in our home. Which opens the possibility of his abusing someone I love. The possibility of damage to my daughters and grandchildren is too great.
I agree Clark, the intent of excommunications (in most instances) are that of repentance. It is less common now that even 20 years ago, but I know several people that were excommunicated, still came to church for a year and were rebaptised.
It may not be doctrine but it’s practiced by far too many members. Our subtle actions of exclusion or inclusion for example. Or how you treat, or don’t treat the person next to you on the pew, who smells of smoke, or came in blue jeans and tennis shoes.
Don, agreed. It’s worth reminding ourselves that the Savior would see beyond our worldly appearance, and we should strive to do so as well.
Don, I agree, but I’d add that this sort of behavior is consistently condemned by the prophets.
With regards to the earlier comment (#6), I think there is a huge difference between being protective and shunning. Some people are dangerous and being careful isn’t the same as shunning.
Clark, I don’t see why you seem averse to the idea the need to protect can justify shunning.
For my part, I’m averse to coming up with some kind of hard and fast rule to allow for shunning or not. That turns our obligation to provide fellowship into a complicated game of casuistry. The Mormon instinct to shun usually occurs for the following (rather deplorable) reasons:
1. They don’t see a socially graceful way to include someone
2. They feel the need to make an example of someone
Remember, Christ ate lunch with publicans, while the “righteous” watched in dismay.
That’s not really my point DKL. I think shunning implies something more than just the intent of protecting. That’s all I’m saying. I agree that there’s probably a class of events which we simply can’t distinguish based only upon the visible actions. What counts are the intents – and those are often hard to know.
Shunning like the JW do is extreme and not supported by the BODY of the NT or the LDS Canon. When I read the opening line of this post this is what came to mind.
We do not “shun” excommunicated members we still love them and wish to see them back in full fellowship.
I have seen pedophiles forbidden from entering church buildings though. There are some extrem cases where maybe it is wise to avoid certain people engaging in dangerous or destructive behavior.
Matt needed to open this up with some more specific examples of what he means by “shunning”. When people read the word they put their own spin on it. To me the JW come to mind right away.
I have shunned people from time to time. A former bishop, who was the husband of my neighbor, kicked my daughter and I shunned him for a year. Then we made up and it’s a long story.
I’ve never been told to shun anybody, in fact, I’ve been told that I’m wrong when I get mad and shun people.
I’m now shunning a guy who wanted to be the bishop and threw a big fit. I’m speaking to him, but in my heart, I’m shunning him.
“in my heart, I’m shunning him”
I love it. So AnneGB!
I think ‘shunning’ would be appropriate where it would lead to unacceptable risks of falling into temptation, either by ourselves or by impressionable persons for whom we are responsible. In other words, where its really ‘protection.’
You’ve probably seen T-shirts and emails with the humerous explanation of religions based on variations of the expression “s*** happens.” The original list I saw had “Mormonism: S*** happens over and over.” I suppose that was a rather unfunny reference to polygamy. More recently, I’ve seen a variation that reads, “Mormonism: If s*** happens, shun it.”
I’m a bit puzzled by this. I know some former members may feel that they’ve been shunned, but it’s odd that someone would identify “shunning” as the (or even a) defining characteristic of our religion. There are numerous positive and negative characteristics are commonly used to stereotype Mormons, but I didn’t know that “shunning” was one of them. Did someone just get us confused with some other religion like the Amish or Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Maybe they just wanted to get shunning in there somewhere and Mormonism seemed like a good place to hang it. But I would think if you want the list to be amusing, it should make use of actual beliefs, practices or at least common stereotypes.
Maybe “S*** happens and we can trace its genealogy”
Ok, just so I can get a handle on what you mean by shun…
Trekkies know that Klingons will ‘vote’ by turning their back to (and never again interact with) someone who is deemed dishonorable.
Is this what you mean by shunning?
I have to agree with #6 – don’t put loved ones in danger just to appease a sinner.
Economically I think we even have the option to not buy from, nor sell to, ‘sinners’. Surely boycotts are ok and if boycotts are ok, then so is refusing to sell to an identified sinner. I do think it is wrong to refuse to interact with a class or group of people, but not individuals who have done harm.
I, for one, am very grateful that this Church heals instead of shuns. This is a timely thread for me because yesterday was an anniversary of my disciplinary council. The love I received after my sins were known was key in opening my heart to healing. How could we ask someone to repent alone?
I think that perhaps Mormons go to other Mormons first for a lot of socialization. That tends to make people who aren’t an active part of the ward feel excluded, whether it is intentional or not. It certainly isn’t shunning. But I think we’re so busy with our ward activities and families that others feel like they are being shunned, even if they aren’t.
Thoughts on #19…
I think that church members subconciously exclude those who do not have lifestyles like theirs. That includes non-members and “not like them” members.
When I first moved to TGSOT, my wife and I were fairly newlyweds (less than a year, more than 6 months) and were living in a ward where we were the only non-pregnant and childless couple in the ward. Needless to say, we were “ignored” by the ward (stuffed into a ward missionary role, probably because we were both RMs and closer in age to the actual missionaries than anyone else in the ward). Our annual salary during my internship was less than what some of these people paid for automobiles.
Our social life quickly became surrounded by “work”, not “Church”. A move back to Happy Vally-Provo to finish up and then a return to TGSOT landed us, temporarily, back in the same ward. No one realized we had been gone for 10 months! And still, our social life revolved around the non-member work compatriots (who looked at us as the “odd” couple who were married).
It took a couple of job changes, a move into a house, and about 4 ward splits in 5 years before we found that our circle of immediate friends included ward members. But still, ward members don’t know how to deal with us when we mention non-MBA grad school experiences (“I thought everyone finished grad school in 3 years” was an actual quote), my wife’s business she’s built from the ground up (“oh you work, how interesting”), and our 8-year-old daughter’s stated desire to go to medical school (“oh, she’ll get married long before that!”), or my oft-stated stance that a golfing activity does NOT constitute an inclusive elders quorum activity.
Sometimes, I find myself shunning them…
Hey you had a one up on me queuno…they just don’t give us callings (our situation sounds very similar to yours…though I don’t know what TGSOT is…and we’ve never been to utah). I haven’t had a calling in 2 years. The only think I can figure is the lack of kids. Dunno…we move alot and I’ve tried to remind myself these people aren’t intentionally being rude…they really do mean well. Sometimes members just build such a bubble for themselves to live in they don’t really know how to interact with those who are different in any way. It is very discouraging when the elders quorum pres sees you in the grocery store and asks if your inactive…when you’ve been there ever sunday. And when the RS presidency asks if Im new to the ward after I’ve been there for 6 months… But, Im trying to take a page out of PRes. Hinckley’s book and stay positive! I think if I go much longer with out a calling I may just go talk to the bishop (he prolly doesn’t even know who I am). \
I really don’t have an issue with my social circle not revolving around the ward though, I don’t really need that to keep my testimony, and I have nothing in common with those in my ward. We have a great group of friends who are like family and we have lots of opportunities for sharing the gospel, so its great.
Another Julie,
Sorry to hear that you are disappointed. You dont need a calling to study the scriptures, go to the temple, fast, do geneology work, not get tattoos, visit families, give money to the Perpetual Opportunity Offerings, go on visits with the missionaries if you live in the mission field, make food for the Activities Committee and to sing in the Choir. There is more that we must do, those are just a few. There is much to do without a calling, you should enjoy those things. You will get kids in the next life if you do everything good. I will fast for you. Love, LBJ
Great idea, LBJ! I will join with your fast and pray that Another Julie might get a calling she can magnify to the blessing of her ward and stake so that Zion’s curtain may be enlarged and the people of the earth mightily blessed. Maybe the M* family could join in a special day of fasting tohelp Julie. What do you say, guys?
I just talked to my home teachers when they were over here. They dont use the internet much so I told them about the Millenial Star. They said that you should not ask for callings so maybe Another Julie shouldn’t ask Heavenly Father for a calling but we could ask Heavenly Father for her and they said that would be ok. I think a special fast would be great. We could do it together and the Holy Ghost will help the Bishop to tell her what calling she should have.
Oh. My. Heck. My home teachers were just here too. They were about to give their pre=planned lesson about following the Prophet when the brother giving the lesson stopped mid-sentence and said he felt inspired to give a lesson about callings. He said it was a symbol of pride to seek for callings or to be released and that we should never refuse a calling or ask to be released because our leadersa are inspired to call or not to call us to serve wherever we may be needed and it is not our place to question. What are the odds that two independent sets of home teachers would be inspired to give the same counsel on the same day Another Julie posted her innermost thoughts on M*. The church is true and this proves it. Please, everybody fast for Another Julie.
Excellent queuno,
The church is a lifestyle in and of itself. While it may be difficult to adjust sometimes, perseverence like yours can help us overcome the one track culture.
Wow you guys I have to say Im really blown away. Thank you sooooo much 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 Really I should be more proactive also, Im kinda an introvert…so I tend to allow myself to go unnoticed. I can’t tell you how much it means to me that you are willing to fast for a total stranger.
(((((((Another Julie)))))))
We are not longer strangers. Have a great Sabbath.
We are No longer strangers, sorry about the typing mistake.
Another Julie,
If you don’t have a calling and think the bishop may not be aware of that, you should definitely tell him you’d like to serve. It’s probably just slipped off his to-do list and he just needs reminding.