Amid the interesting stats shared by the commentators on Elisabeth’s willworkforawife.org post, Elisabeth wrote in comment #16:
I sort of go back and forth between being appalled at such abbreviated meeting to dating to engaged to married stories amongst Mormons, and awed that so many great marriages can be built on knowing each other for such a short amount of time.
What real relationship is there between successful marriage and pre-marriage familiarity? Which aspects of your potential spouse are essential to know before you decide to marry, and which are not?
I few years ago I became good friends with a co-worker. He was a fairly devout Muslim from Yemen, where he had been born, raised, and married. One day we went to lunch along with another co-worker.
My friend and I were both married, and our other companion was single. During the car ride, the conversation turned to marriage, and my friend from Yemen asked our single friend why he had not yet tied the knot. He explained that he hadn’t yet found the right woman. My Yemeni friend asked him how he would know when he found the right woman. Our single friend began to enumerate various qualifications and attributes by which she would be identified.
At this point my Yemeni friend decided to tell us about how he and his wife came to be married. His parents had arranged the marriage, as is typical in his culture. He explained that during the process he possessed a veto power to whatever arrangement his parents proposed, and that he was permitted a single photograph of his potential spouse and one relatively brief phone conversation with her before he made his decision. The were married. She moved into his parents home with him for the first year of marriage adjustment, and then they were on their own.
Our single friend responded that he didn’t think he would be able to marry someone he didn’t know like that. I’m sure many of you feel the same way.
Our Yemeni friend laughed and said that Americans were under this silly misconception. “What you perceive of your potential wife before marriage is mostly an illusion,” he declared. “When you wake up the morning after your marriage, in reality you know the person lying in bed next to you just as well as I do after my arranged marriage!”
This declaration by my friend has long fascinated me. From my own experience with marriage I can say that I believe that there is some truth in it.
Mission Presidents famously give a “going home” discourse to missionaries who are completing their service. My mission president asked our little group how long one needed to know someone before he could know if they are the kind of person he could marry? “A few months,” suggested one missionary. “Maybe six months?” tried another. “Wrong,” declared the president. “You usually know whether someone is the kind of person you could marry in about the same amount of time it takes to now whether a person you have contacted is the kind of person that could get baptized–after about 5 to 10 minutes. Not always, but usually. That doesn’t mean that you will marry them, but you know whether or not you could.”
On its face, this declaration appears ludicrous, but, like my Yemeni friend’s declaration, I believe that it is at least partially true. It may not be always true, but I think that, perhaps, it is often true.
Marriage changes so many parameters that even if you know the person you dated fairly well before hand, you know them only as a single individual. Even if your familiarity with their single self can give you a fairly decent guide to certain aspects that will continue into marriage, you cannot really know what they will be like as a spouse until they are actually your spouse.
Marriage can change people, and it often does. Having children can change people, and almost always does. When our first daughter was born, my wife suddenly found herself with motherly instincts and priorities that did not exist before. She did not exactly choose them either. These changes, brought on by the hormones associated with pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood, changed my wife into someone different than I had known before. And I found some of those changes annoying. I love her more than ever now, but at the time I complained a little.
Life changes people and whether we like it or not we cannot control the changes that may occur in our spouse after marriage–some of which are clearly inevitable and not subject to our agency.
We often spend so much time trying to find the “right” person that we fail to realize that the individual we become enamored of is not static, he is dynamic. Certainly there is a core-self that remains the same–that which makes it itself–but we run the risk of falling in love with the current trappings rather than the soul; trappings both physical and non-physical.
Other times we put off marriage until we feel confident that we have conquered ourselves–a goal that is just as impossibly illusive. I like what Ray Bradbury had to say about this approach in his novel Something Wicked This Way Comes. Charles Halloway is talking to his son, Will, and says:
For being good is a fearful occupation; men strain at it and sometimes break in two. I’ve known a few. You work twice as hard to be a farmer as to be his hog. I suppose it’s thinking about trying to be good makes the crack run up the wall one night. A man with high standards, too, the least hair falls on him sometimes wilts his spine. He can’t let himself alone, won’t lift himself off the hook if he falls just a breath from grace….
Look at me: married at thirty-nine, Will, thirty-nine! But I was so busy wrestling myself two falls out of three, I figured I couldn’t marry until I had licked myself good and forever. Too late, I found you can’t wait to become perfect, you got to go out and fall down and get up with everybody else. So at last I looked up from my great self-wrestling match one night when your mother came to the library for a book, and got me, instead. And I saw then and there you take a man half-bad and a woman half-bad and put their two good halves together and you got one human all good to share between. That’s you, Will, for my money.
My wife is not the same woman I married six and a half years ago. I am not the same man she married. Or rather, we are the same, but changed. The, often difficult, experiences we have passed through since then have permanently changed us and redefined parts of us. And that is both wonderful and scary.
As I have said previously, my father is fond of defining faith as “the ability to make correct decisions with insufficient information.”
Marriage is truly a leap of faith.
I believe that every time a woman meets the man among all the men in the world, and a man meets the woman among all the women that he or she is willing to spend the rest of eternity with, it is a pure miracle. A miracle that happens, amazingly, all the time.
And if getting married is an amazing leap of faith and a resulting miracle, then continuing in marriage is a miracle that requires equal, continued faith. You have no guarantee that in ten years, five years, six months, or even tomorrow, your spouse will not be taken from you by death, or worse, by his own decision to abandon the truth and take up a path of sin. She has her agency, regardless of your love and your faithfulness.
And still we love, and pray that our love is stronger than death and sin. As the bard scribbled: “Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds.” We bind ourselves to moving objects and anchor ourselves to the Lord and hope that the two stay relatively close together–and when they don’t, we feel the awful pull between them, and our tensile strength is measured.
I have always thought that my marriage revealed that the Lord has a sense of humor. My patriarchal blessing promised me that the Lord would provide a companion that my patriarch described under inspiration as “a virtuous, wonderful daughter of our Heavenly Father.” And I married a woman who is not only virtuous and wonderful, but who is named Chastity. The tender mercies of the Lord indeed! Who knew that the lord liked puns!
I am so thankful that I took that leap of faith. I love her more now than I even had the capacity to love when I first fell in love with her. And even more amazing is that while in some ways I have certainly fallen well below the expectation of what she thought she was marrying, she miraculously loves me nevertheless!
And so, here at the end of my meandering thoughts, I return to my original questions:
What real relationship is there between successful marriage and pre-marriage familiarity? Which aspects of your potential spouse are essential to know before you decide to marry, and which are not?
Reminds me of a Buddhist tale where a master asks a seeker, “Who are you?” and just as the seeker begins to say, the master interrupts: “You have already changed a thousand thousand times between the end of my question and the start of your reply.”
I’m also reminded of the Stake President of one of my missionary companions – he got a letter from his family one day, saying the oddest thing: His stake president, who had 7 kids, all of whom were RMs and married in the temple, yadda yadda etc. etc. – his wife had decided she was a lesbian and left him the day the last kid moved out of the house.
Sometimes you just never know.
At the same time, I hedged my bets (so to speak) by marrying a fellow sci-fi/fantasy nerd. If you can bond over Star Trek, Orson Scott Card and the finer points of obscure 1950s sci-fi movies and TV shows, your marriage is likely to succeed (I hope, anyway). But being a parent has changed us both – I know I see changes in my wife, and I’m sure she has seen changes in me.
My future husband and I spent five weeks in the same state before I went off to school and he to study abroad. During our year-long separation, we emailed daily and together went through a book called _The Marital Compatibility Test_. We had maybe three more weeks (spread out in one week intervals) together and then got married. We had our ninth anniversary this week. What I learned:
(1) email is a great way to date. Once the physical temptations are removed, you can better consider what is left: emotional, intellectual, and spiritual connection.
(2) if you are tempted to laugh at the compatibility test, stop right now. Discussing things like how much money you would ever consider spending on a stereo, what the proper response to a whining child is, or whether milk might be consumed directly from the carton are conversations better had before you commit to spend ETERNITY with someone. It gave us interesting things to write to each other about.
(3) I do agree with your friend that a lot you just will never know before marriage, and that a lot will change with the addition of small, demanding people to the household. But testing the waters by seeing how you both react to a disagreement over how much to spend on a hypothetical stereo will give you a feel for how and if you argue well with each other.
J. Max Wilson,
You read my mind tonight.
I just returned from yet another ho-hum sort of date. I spent most of the evening wondering about the very questions you ask in this post, partly because I had been reading the “how we met” comments from the other thread right before he picked me up and was distracted through most of our date.
My thoughts tonight echo yours. It is nothing less than a miracle that any two people ever come together. I don’t know how else to account for what seems like such an unlikely event. And everyone’s stories about knowing someone for a month or even a few before engagement absolutely blow my mind. Of course, every proposal I’ve ever received has also come between one and three months of dating so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Still, my responsible self says it would preposterous to accept a proposal after so short an acquaintance. My careful and cautious side requires certain conversations to take place first.
There are the various gospel conversations that have to occur to assess
faithfulness, orthodoxy, depth of testimony, commitment to the church, obedience to the commandments and so forth.
There are conversations about family life to assess how many children and when are wanted, what sort of parenting philosophy he has, what sort of relationship his parents have, how he understands gender roles, how he understands fatherhood, whether or not he will support me as a mother and in my career, whether we can get along with each others’ families, and so forth.
There are conversations about money that need to take place to assess whether he’s a saver or a spender, whether he responsibly budgets or loses track of his money, what kinds of things he spends money on, whether he has debt and how much, how well he’s prepared himself to support a family, and so forth.
There are conversations about lifestyle that need to take place to assess the sort of place he’d like to live. Kansas or Brooklyn? A condo or a ranch? Can he stand the suburbs? Will he insist on them? Is he handy? What about pets? Is he clean or messy?
And that’s only the beginning to determine the most basic compatibility, after that the more personal investigation commences.
Is there an emotional connection?
What is it based on?
Can we trust each other? Do we?
Will he invest in our relationship over time?
Is there sexual attraction?
How passionate is he?
Is he both passionate and capable of being fiercely loyal to me?
Do I like him just as well when it’s Spring and Summer as I do in Winter and vice versa?
(This might sound strange, but it’s a question about longevity. Have you ever had a Summer fling that didn’t last through the hard, cold months? Or the reverse, have you cuddled with someone through January and February to find that in the warmth of Summer you didn’t really appreciate each other?)
As for the Fall—I get giddy during the Fall, which giddiness can be easily mistaken for love so I have to be careful during Autumn. No serious relationship decisions can be made in October–period.
Do my friends and family like him? Why?
Am I best self with him?
Has he seen me sick as a dog? How did he react?
Have I seen him sick as a dog? How did I react?
Does he inspire my confidence? Do I feel safe with him?
How do we communicate?
Do I respect and admire him? Why?
How does he respond to my weaknesses?
How do I respond to his weaknesses?
Is he gentle/does he have a temper?
How do we handle conflict?
And I could go on . . .
Yet, there’s something about what your mission president said ,J Max Wilson, that I believe. It’s the same something that is reflected in the dozens of people who wrote about how much they adore their spouse even though they only knew that person for a few months before committing their life to him or her.
I think there is a sense that you get of a person right away—not that you KNOW you will marry them (like Mary Siever did—although I strongly believe that that happens too), but rather that you feel somehow like you’ve finally come home.
It’s good for me to remember that when I have dates like I did tonight with nice men. (This one was educated, active in the Church, good-looking . . .) In some ways it would be so easy for me to date him for a few months, get engaged over Christmas and marry him next Spring. He would always be faithful to me, would be kind, would be a good father, these things I knew in the first 15 minutes. . . but, I also knew in the first 15 minutes that it would be a mistake, because even after one date, I knew that I hadn’t yet come home.
JMW, that’s interesting. I usually bash on the quick marriages (I personally feel that I’d need to date someone at least a year and a half before I could commit to a marriage), but it’s true that even dating for a year or so isn’t going to give you a perfect knowledge. I can easily see myself as a Charles that never made his realization.
I don’t think there’s the man or the woman for anyone. There are simply varying degrees of compatibility. It’s up to each person to decide what to “settle” for. You’ve got to put up with her, she’s got to put up with you. But it is best to make sure that you don’t have to put up with more than you can take. Otherwise, you’ll be running further than you have strength every day of your marriage. Eventually, that catches up with people.
But, that answer’s kind of a cop out, isn’t it? Here’s my personal short list of essentials:
1) A woman that knows that I need my own time. Maybe that’s just me, but I need time that’s just mine. I don’t think that this will change when I meet “Ms. Right”. I love gnocchi to death, but not all the time. It’s very important to me to catch a game and read a book alone sometimes.
2) A woman that doesn’t exude desperation, either in terms of being in a relationship or in the status of it. I’m not the most secure person in the world and I simply cannot be that good a partner to someone that needs constant reassurance.
3) A woman that believes in herself as a competent life partner.
If I don’t know those things for sure, it can’t work.
What real relationship is there between successful marriage and pre-marriage familiarity? Which aspects of your potential spouse are essential to know before you decide to marry, and which are not?
I wrote such a long post (instead of writing in my journal, which is what I should have done) and still didn’t really answer your question.
The short answer is that none of those aspects that I listed as necessary to asses are essential for me to know. Not really. There have been men whom I’ve known who’ve had all the “right” traits but who were nevertheless wrong for me, sometimes for inexplicable reasons.
Marriage is a gamble, that’s all there is to it. Because people change there’s no way to be sure how things will turn out. There’s no magic formula to weed out the losers and keep the winner. There’s just that feeling of home and then a leap of faith, like you said. And sometimes you can have the feeling and one or the other of you refuses to take the leap of faith because it feels more like you’re jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge and you just can’t do it so you back away from the edge. Other times the feeling won’t come, but you jump anyway and you end up lucky because the leap can give birth to the feeling and so you create home together.
But sometimes you don’t end up lucky because you took the leap of faith but it actually was the Golden Gate Bridge and the feeling didn’t come and you end up a bloody, mangled mess with cars speeding by you on the highway or choking in the freezing depths and drowning alone.
With all the uncertainty, with all the terrifying risk, with the heartbreaking marital tragedies that abound, I don’t honestly know how anyone ever manages to do it.
“Discussing things like how much money you would ever consider spending on a stereo, what the proper response to a whining child is, or whether milk might be consumed directly from the carton are conversations better had before you commit to spend ETERNITY with someone.”
Julie: I’m sure you didn’t intend your statement as such, but…
if your (or anyone’s) evaluation of a potential partner’s eternal prospects is based on whether or not one should drink milk from the carton, etc., um…
I’d suggest the evaluator evaluate themselves; because regardless of the “others” answer, the fact that one would even consider milk cartoon drinking as a serious issue re: an eternal companion doesn’t seem to understand what an eternal relationship is about. IMO.
Melissa, “marriage is a gamble.” Truer words were never spoken.
I’ve been married almost 24 years and I don’t know the answers to your questions. I barely knew my husband and I thought he was somebody entirely different. I didn’t know he was obsessive, onery, had never read a book in his life. All I knew he was tall, dark, and handsome, commanding in a Gregory Peck way. I wanted his body.
He didn’t know me, either. I was tiny, with long silky tendrils and big blue eyes. He didn’t know I was a neurotic mess who cussed like a truck driver and could lay him flat with one blow if he got on my bad side.
I wouldn’t call our marriage a success. It’s lasted, but I don’t know how. I know people, though, who start out completely compatible, then one changes, gets into porn, or gets sick of the life they chose, or falls in love with someone else. It’s a gamble.
I got my daughter that compatibility thing and she and her fiance are enjoying it. It might help them work out a few things, but you don’t know who you really are until you’ve lived with the other person and been through poverty and sick kids.
Anne Tyler, in her book, The Patchwork Planet, says (apologies for the length in advance, but it’s so cool) “…I knew couples who’d been married almost forever, forty, fifty, sixty years. Seventy-two, in one case. They’d be tending each other’s illnesses, filling in each other’s faulty memories, dealing with the money troubles, or the daughter’s suicide, or the grandson’s drug addiction. And I was beginning to suspect that it made no difference whether they’d married the right person. Finally, you’re just with who you’re with. You signed on with her, put in half a century with her, grown to know her as well as you know yourself, or even better, and she’s become the right person. Or the only person, more to the point. I wish someone had told me that earlier.
If you made it all the way through that, you’re better for it. It’s wisdom.
I liked this post, J. Max Wilson. Perhaps because I’m not married, so it has the appeal of the exotic. But I did go on a mission, and I don’t remember feeling within the first 5 minutes if someone could be baptized. Or rather, because of an overactive imagination, I could imagine everyone baptized, with a calling, and in a new, happy life within 5 minutes of having met them. Such is the optimism of (myself as) a missionary. As for having a feeling like that for future spouses–I think I know right away if I’d want to date them, but I have no feeling like that for marriage. And I’ve had far too many 14-year-old crushes (even now, at 26) to trust that those amorous feelings could actually lead to a real relationship. Marriage (happy, successful, well-matched marriage) seems like something that happens as a gift from God.
My husband and I are complete opposites in termperament, personality, and interests. The only thing we have in common, besides a love of music (and even there, he tends to hate anything I really, really love, just on principle), is our outlook on life and our values.
I love that quote, Anne, because it’s so true. We’ve been through so much together and have such unique experiences than anyone else we know, we never really fit in anywhere, except with each other.
My husband and I dated for 6 months before we got married. Before that, I knew him in high school. He never really proposed, our conversations just turned from “if we had kids, we’d do such and such…” to “when we have kids…”
Definitely an interesting topic. I, too, am not married; yet, in my uninitiated opinion, I think knowing yourself is the key to knowing who would make a good potential spouse. Since we can never fully know another person, a deep understanding of who you, yourself, are is the best starting/reference point in making that determination. The better you understand your own position and role in the world, the easier it is to assess others.
Maybe.
Melissa,
I saw you at MHA and wanted to say “hi,” but it just didn’t work with the press of people and such.
I was intrigued by your allusion to all the proposals you have received. How many have there been? Since, as I understand, you are still single, I take it you turned them all down? Were you tempted to accept any of them, or were the decisions fairly straightforward and easy for you?
If those questions are too personal, please feel free to ignore them. I am just fascinated by an LDS woman who turns down multiple marriage proposals. Shades of Miss Elizabeth Bennett.
Kevin,
I am sorry that we missed each other at MHA. Surely, we’ll have the opportunity to meet at some time in the near future.
As for your question, I prefer not to discuss details in this forum to avoid turning my personal life into a mere curiosity. But, someday, if you wish, I would be happy to talk to you in person at greater length about particulars. (Of course, I imagine that we could find much, much more interesting things to discuss)
I’m not sure how to take your comparison of me to Miss Bennett. While Lizzy is quite likable in her own way (independent, opinionated, bookish) she is also sharp-tongued, mean-spirited and quick to judge. Should I be flattered or insulted?
I can say for certain that I’ve never turned down anyone as obsequious as Mr. Collins. I can only hope that I haven’t unwittingly passed over a Mr. Darcy, Pemberley and all . . .
My wife and I dated for a little under 2 months before I proposed. We were married 4 months later and last February we celebrated our 8th wedding anniversary.
About 2 weeks after we started dating I knew she was the person I wanted to spend eternity with. I also knew she was “the one”.
My goodness, Melissa. You really don’t want to blog every detail of your personal life? 😉
But Kevin, I suspect that Melissa’s life isn’t nearly as austentatious as that of Miss Bennett.
Melissa, my invocation of Miss Elizabeth was definitely meant as a compliment. But of course, you would have no way of knowing that I am in love with her, both as a literary creation of Miss Austen and as the flesh and blood portrayal in the Colin Firth A&E six-hour miniseries, which I have on DVD and watch from time to time.
I see in the movie theater that a new movie version is due out soon, with Keira Knightley in the starring role. I doubt it can top the Colin Firth version, but I’ll definitely be giving it a shot. (The recent BYU-like university based version, which I saw recently for the first time on cable, was a game attempt by Mollywood standards, but I prefer my Austen straight up.)
I’m afraid that Miss Elizabeth’s faults you catalog seem to have escaped me entirely; I’ve noticed only all of her many charms.
Kevin,
In that case, I humbly accept your kind compliment. Don’t misunderstand me I also love Lizzy (I’ve even toyed with naming my first daughter after Miss Elizabeth Bennett, no less!) Still, I had to be sure exactly what you meant before I could be happy at such a comparison. After all, Lizzy’s pride almost costs her Mr. Darcy. You can understand how a single LDS girl (who has rejected multiple proposals) would never want to be accused, even indirectly, of letting pride stand in her way of exaltation.
Truth be told, my idea of pure decadence is a whole day of the BBC’s version of Pride and Prejudice. When I’m sick or sad and want to be comforted it is Colin Firth and nothing else. In fact, I decided not to watch the BYU-version that recently came out. How could it be anything but a desecration? I couldn’t bear it. I saw the preview for the new version last night on my ho-hum date and I have to say I don’t think I’ll see that one either. Mr. Darcy can’t be arrogant AND miserable looking. If he’s going to be cool and indifferent to Lizzy for more than half the show he must at least be dashing. And Keira Knightley is just too delicate and fragile for the role of Elizabeth. Lizzy’s strong and should never be played by a waif.
Kaimi, you’re so clever 😉
Hm. I feel a bit like Naomi. As a missionary I resolved to see everyone I met as someone who could become a strong member of the church. So the mission president’s test doesn’t help me much. I don’t see people as static, not at all. I have also been completely surprised at what I’ve learned about some people’s personalities and values after knowing them a few weeks or months. I don’t buy the 5-10 minute test. At the same time, I do think that successful marriage is much less about what the partners are like than about what they are committed to. It all makes me dizzy.
I think the most important thing to be committed to is working on the relationship. If you just keep working on it, things work out. The biggest problem people have is not being willing to work, constantly, on improving themselves and on giving to the relationship. Or of being aware that they need to work at it at all.
So, we must at least be able to identify our “essentials” and those of our intended. Something that was extremely important to ME was that my husband fit into my family and that I fit into his.
I do agree with Stephen that commitment to the relationship is essential.
But, Ben, what someone is committed to is reflected in what someone is like. Someone’s commitments ground someone’s character and character influences someone’s observable walk and talk. While it is true that people are not “static†and some behaviors and opinions may vary from day to day and even change dramatically over time, character is not nearly as fluid. I don’t think we disagree that what someone is committed to (your words) or what someone’s character is (my words) is what is most important. I think we disagree over whether that more fixed something is relatively quickly discerned. I think character can be fairly easily measured in how someone treats me on a series of dates. (By the way, I don’t think this is at all comparable to whether or not someone will accept the Gospel—what missionary ever wrote any prospective investigators off?)
You seem to think that for marriage purposes it doesn’t matter what someone is like, that only what one is committed to matters. Since I think that what someone is like reflects their core commitments and thus, has huge implications for a marriage, we obviously disagree on this. However, I will concede that there may be some aspects (which are more preferences than traits) that do not necessarily reflect someone’s character. In such cases those aspects are irrelevant (or should be) for marriage compatibility. For example, whether someone likes peas or corn better does not usually reflect someone’s commitments (unless he lives in Iowa and raises corn for a living). Such a preference has no bearing on one’s deeper values and hence, should have no impact on marriageability. In such small things, commitment and character are not the issue. However, all traits are not so insignificant. For example, recently I was on a date with someone who spoke of various television shows throughout the evening and how much he enjoyed watching TV every night after work. I had never seen most of the television shows he mentioned because I do not have television in my home. Later in the evening when we were at his apartment I couldn’t help but notice that he didn’t own any books. Not even one! I was stunned by this since I currently have 216 books checked out from the library.
In some ways I know quite a bit about this man after only one date. I know that he is a returned missionary with a demanding calling in his ward. I know that he has a temple recommend (and all that that entails). I know that he has a good job, wants children, loves his family and so forth. I know a lot about what he’s committed to and I can say without reservation that he is a good man.
But, how should I interpret his television watching and lack of books? Is this a minor question of “personality†that does not reflect his character (what he’s committed to), that may change over time because people aren’t static? Or, should I (more wisely) interpret his habits as a reflection of what he values? Is this a small difference that I should overlook or one that could lead to great unhappiness for both of us in marriage? Perhaps there are those in the bloggernacle who will call me to repentance for such discrimination. But, hear me out. It’s not so much the fact that he watches television (I don’t judge television watchers) as what it represents about the way he uses time. We use our time very differently. Will the way he uses his time change? Perhaps. Will the way I use my time change? Perhaps. If we married and neither of us ever changed the way we spent our time would this adversely affect our marriage? Absolutely. It is naive to believe otherwise. Similar examples could be multiplied.
Of course, a lot depends on one’s conception of marriage. If an emotionally intimate connection is not an important part of how one understands marriage then I suppose such “personality†traits might matter less.
Like I said, Melissa, my husband never reads. I had too many stars in my eyes to notice this when we got married, but what a shock to my system that was. I, like you, have piles of books all around.
Now, 24 years later, I read, he putters in the yard and fishes. Like I said, it’s just a miracle that we’re still married. It’s that commitment Stephen speaks of.
My wife and I are just one of several couples we know (not all of them LDS) that knew almost as soon as dating started that marriage was in the cards, but put off ‘deciding’ to get married for a while due to embarassment and knowing so soon.
The two of us, a couple of weeks after we met, were actually just chatting along and somehow agreed to get married. We both panicked when we returned to our homes. What had we done? So we passed it off as a fit of madness. But the fact that we were able to agree that we’d be married, casually, without thinking much of it at the time, shows that all our subsequent delay and mulling it over was so much vanity and posturing.
Incidentally, we did take one of those compatibility tests. It was useful. Didn’t tell us whether we should get married or not (like I said, that was already clear), but it did give us a good vehicle to talk about finances, sex, children, career, etc.
Naomi & Ben,
I agree with you that as a missionary it is one’s duty to approach everyone with the belief that no matter what they are currently like they might feel the spirit and change. Like you, I was very optimistic about the possibility that every person I contacted could be baptized and like Naomi, I often pictured them in white.
At the same time I found that when I encountered someone who was absolutely “Golden” I could tell nearly immediately (5-10 minutes). Of course, I served in a mission where there was a high incidence of “golden” contacts. Had I served in a mission where such contacts were rare to the point of being almost non-existent, I may not have had ever experienced that perception.
But, whereas contacting potential converts is inherently inclusive (everyone who is willing can join the church), contacting potential spouses is inherently exclusive because you must choose one and exclude the rest.
Like I said in the post, I think that there is some truth in my mission president’s declaration, but I don’t think that it is universally applicable.
Perhaps it is a manifestation of the spiritual gift of discernment?
Naomi said:
This feeling for whether you could marry someone that my mission president referred to is quite distinct from a crush or the amorous feelings you describe. In my experience you can want to date someone, or have a crush on someone, while at the same time knowing, somehow, that you could never marry them. At the same time I think that it is possible that you could recognize to some extent that a person is the kind of person you could marry, even if you currently have no amorous feeling for them.
I think that you will often find that, sadly, the kind of person people want to date is often distinct from the kind of person they want to marry.
When I first started dating my husband there were no fireworks or spiritual declarations from heaven. He was a great guy, handsome, intelligent, active, RM, etc, but I came to realize that we could just talk for hours, that our personalities just fit. It was definitely like everyone had told me that when you know, you just know, but I can’t place it at any one moment of certainty. It was like the seed of faith that grew and kept growing.
It was extremely important to both my husband and I to marry someone of equal intelligence, but I laugh at that now, because we spend perhaps 3% of our time together involved in intelligent discussion. Mostly our lives are about loving and caring for one another and our son. Saying, “I love you” with a kiss in the morning, hugging and commiserating about the day when he comes home from work, playing with our son, making dinner while he distracts the toddler, laughing, touching, planning for the future.
Yes, I’m happy that we can understand each other’s big words, but what is really important is how well we are communicating and fulfilling one another’s needs, how well we are loving each other.
I completely agree with J. Max that the person you date is just the idea of who that person is before you marry and come to know the ever-evolving reality that is your spouse.
I am less interested in politics than I once was, my husband likes to watch TV a lot more than I expected, I am more casual, he is more formal, I love to rough it, he is more of an “indoors” person. Do these things really matter? No.
If I were to answer now about the aspects of your spouse that you should really come to know before marriage, they would be:
Level of true spirituality.
Level of responsibility (finances, grades, goals).
How they react to stress and crisis.
How well they can communicate their feelings, especially their negative feelings.
Vision of future life as a couple and as a family (lifestyle, finances, children, goals).
I have to admit that NOTHING about my husband surprised me after we were married. I might be disappointed, mad or thrilled and happy but he never actually surprises me. I pretty much knew who he was.
But, I think that knowing someone has NOTHING to do with whether your marriage is successful or not.
A happy marriage has to do with the choices you make every day. Do you make it your #1 priority? Do you put the happiness of your spouse next to your own happiness in importance?
A happy marriage requires commitment and work. With it any two people can be happily married.
LOL, Melissa. My husband watches TV. I did not ever watch TV before we got married. I read. I don’t own many books, though, because I can’t afford to support my reading habit. I have to use libraries and borrow from my family members. Actually my husband does read, he just only reads a little. Also, he reads much more slowly than I do so he can’t whip through books the way I can.
13 years of marriage later. I watch some TV now and find it enjoyable. I sometimes get irritated at him for having the TV on. He understands that I don’t like it on all the time and tries to compromise. We have had “arguments” over the years. But now we’ve pretty much got a happier medium going on. My husband has MANY wonderful qualities that I wanted in a husband. He is a wonderful father. He just happened to grow up in a family that watched TV 24/7 and he watched TV to escape from a stressful homelife. TV has a lot of happy memories for him.
I knew who he was when I married him. Neither of us has really changed, but we’ve got a comfortable compromise going on so there is little resentment/argument over the issue these days.
I wouldn’t say TV watching is his worst fault. LOL. Unfortunately, husband’s aren’t exactly a checklist of what you want on your burger.
I haven’t seen any other husbands I see in my family, friends or ward that I’d prefer to be married to. So, I’ll take him, faults and all.
I’m with Melissa (philosophically). I don’t think it’s necessariy about books vs. TV: the idea is that common values enhance a relationship. I’m not interested in “making my marriage work”–I’m interested in (having chosen) the best possible partner for me, and every individual or couple has certain deal-breakers that may not matter to everyone, but they matter.Sure, some arranged marriages work, and some quickie marriages work. However, by the time a woman is in her mid-thirties and has kept her own company very well, the last thing she wants to do is just ‘pick someone” becaues it’s a commandment to marry and “any two people can make a marriage work.”
If she’s spent twenty years in school, she understands the value of a tertiary education, and who doesn’t drool and say “huh” after a wonderfully lucid ephiphany voiced in the middle of the night. She wants someone who appreciates all the fine things in life she’s come to appreciate while growing up on her own. When young couples grow up together as a married pair, they forget that single adults their age are not just teens in grown-up bodies; they’re independent, interesting people who need to meet and mate with someone who can keep up!
Or at least that’s how it was for me…
Oops. That should have read,
“If she’s spent twenty years in school, she understands the value of a tertiary education, and wants someone who doesn’t drool…”
. . . and wants someone who doesn’t drool and say “huh” after a wonderfully lucid ephiphany voiced in the middle of the night.
My sentiments exactly . . . I wonder how this very line would go over in a personal ad? 😉
Hmm_very interesting,
You must be a woman in her mid-thirties who’s spent twenty years in school yourself to be so insightful on this matter. If so, I wonder where on God’s green earth you met a mate who could “keep up” ?
Naomi Frandsen in 8 – “Marriage (happy, successful, well-matched marriage) seems like something that happens as a gift from God”
Hi by the way – I recognized your name and realized we were in the same BYU Freshman ward – small world – (the RA of David John Hall 3rd floor married my brother)
Anyway, Like with any major decision in life (mission, college, career etc.) you pray for confirmation – that’s what I did thru dating – continue to evaluate, pay attention to your list of “must have’s” vs. “wishes” and one day it will either hit you – this is a really good thing or oh-boy, I better get out now. That is how I ended up with the THE MOST perfect person for me and really wouldn’t want to change a thing about him (his core anyway – the leaving the shoes all over the house is trivial and I can deal). I had dated like a fiend for 2 months before we met and before I left the fertile grounds of BYU. I met/dated him for 8 months before becoming engaged so for some that is really fast – but we spent every evening with each other (approx. 5 hrs/day on average) – I think that’s something that is left out in the discussions here about “quickie” marriages is the lack of information of how much actual TIME is spent with that person.
Our first date really wasn’t that good, he was cute, tall, spiritual giant etc. but like Melissa said it was just sort of ho-hum. Something told me to give him another chance, which really bugged me because I really wanted to move on, but the feeling was persistent, so I consented for a second date. (the first was a blind date and we had been emailing/calling for awhile, and felt like the person I knew on the phone was not the person I went on that first date with. I figured we were both nervous and not ourselves so to give him the 3 strikes and your out rule. I’m so glad I did because I fell head over heels in love and received a very strong impression in the temple one day that he was the right choice. As a sidenote I’ve never placed any stake in the idea of there being “a one” for me, but I sure feel like he is “the one” for me now and I can’t really picture myself as happy with anyone else.
Hmm_very interesting in 28 -“I’m interested in (having chosen) the best possible partner for me, and every individual or couple has certain deal-breakers that may not matter to everyone, but they matter.”
I agree on this – First and foremost is the gospel – dedication and obedience, second comes goals in life and common interests, and third which isn’t suprising it’s not mentioned here in an LDS post, is physical attraction and compatibility. I do feel for Melissa who has turned down many options for her – I assume she did so because to her she did not have confirmation from the Spirit that that individual was right for her – at that time. Not to offend Melissa, but I also feel for the men you let get so far into a relationship with you that they would propose when you had no intention of heading down that road with them.
My main point is that if you choose the people you date based on your set of qualifications/similarities/common interests and let the spirit guide your decision making process, and receive confirmation before the question is even popped, you can’t go wrong.
Sweet Emily,
No offense taken. I feel for those men too, although for different reasons than you do. In my world, dating someone for one or two months does not mean a proposal is in order. With only one exception I’ve never given any indication whatsoever that I would marry the men who’ve proposed. For this reason, as cruel as it sounds, those who’ve let themselves get that far along in their own feelings without clearly understanding my feelings on such an important matter should not have been surprised at my inability to accept a proposal and have only themselves to blame for any heartache that may have followed.
By the way, I haven’t “turned down many options.” Had they been real options for me I would not have turned them down. I am truly glad to hear that you are so happily matched. But, there are many worse things than being single. I know scores of unhappily married Mormon women while happy single Mormon women abound. I’m more grateful than you know to be among the latter and (unless the right man comes along) would be perfectly content to so remain.
Some of the married people indicated that beyond a certain point, they “just knew” that they would get married. (See Adam Greenwood in #23, Audrey Stone in #25.) I would be really interested in hearing what proportion of the time this happens. Does it happen for most, or just the lucky few? Do some people have to pour a lot of careful analysis into the decision without ever feeling terribly certain about it? It’s the classic problem for people who are a) single and b) decision-averse: do nerves suggest it’s not the right person, or just that you have a normal case of the nerves?
(An additional wrinkle: did you ever “just know” you were going to marry someone…but then didn’t?)
Melissa – you are a strong woman to put up with those men – if they popped the question without discussing it first with you I completely agree that they are at fault for the pain they’re enduring – I can’t imagine how hard those instances must have been for you. And I am so glad that you are happy and content with your state in life – that’s really what its all about isn’t it? I’m interested to hear though what constitutes a “real option” for you? What was wrong with these other candidates? Again that may be too personal for a blog in which case ignore the questions alltogether.
Anna – I think that there are glimpses throughout a relationship where you feel that impression, but then ugly doubt comes rushing in because (especially in LDS culture) it is such a huge decision and it’s normal to feel fear and anxiety throughout the process of dating someone seriously. But as time passes in your dating relationship those moment of doubt become fewer and fewer – and in a lot of cases it really becomes a leap of faith, if the Lord is not telling you yes or no either way after you’ve made a decision, then its up to you to carefully analyze your relationship and what you want and move forward.
I’ve known many couples who are so very happy but never really experienced an “I knew” moment. In my case I freaked out at about the 5 month mark and broke up for a whopping total of 1 week – I was miserable during that time and every date I went on or guy I tried to flirt with just made me feel guilty and like I’d made this HUGE mistake. So I went to the “house of refuge” and called up my now hubby, and lucky for me he was ready to try again. My particular reasons for doing this have to do a lot with my personal fears and that I HADN’T taken the time to do my analysis. So I would say for me, my moment of “just knowing” came after a huge internal struggle and seeking for confirmation.