Seriously, what’s the use?
We’ve had some discussion here about the possibility that God removes principles by which the Saints are unable to abide. I’m surprised he hasn’t yet seen it fit to take away Testimony Meeting, at least from my ward. Maybe that day is coming.
At its best, Testimony Meeting can be revelatory, even pentecostal (small p). I love hearing the pure witness of someone who wishes to talk of her joy in Christ or gratitude for a miracle.
At its worst, well, you all know what I’m talking about. Anyway, this is not simply another rant about how bad testimony meeting has gotten. I have something very productive to say: I think I’ve figured out the problem.
My hypothesis: The more tightly-knit the ward, and the longer that ward has existed with most of its members, the worse the testimony meetings.
I’ve already polled over two people on 1) the quality of testimony meetings in their ward (all were rated very low), and the closeness of their ward (all were rated moderately high). Obviously, this is enough evidence to completely prove Bell’s Theory of Desirable Testimonial Distance , which I will now refer to as Bell’s Law of . . . . (BLODTD, pronounced ‘Bloated’).
Speaking broadly, bad testimony (an oxymoron, I know) is really about one thing: Self-indulgence. We’ve been well enough trained and taught that almost anyone who takes the stand knows very well what is and is not appropriate to say there. You’ve seen it happen a million times– someone gets up, mentions how they know they’re not supposed to discuss their kids’ experiences away at school, but . . .
In other words, we’re sinning against knowledge here. People don’t ramble because they don’t know better, they ramble because they’ve decided to indulge themselves. And I believe this is far more likely to happen when they’re surrounded by people they’ve known for thirty years. More people will get the in-jokes, more people might recognize the name of your son’s old girlfriend, more people will care that you used to live on Maple befor you moved to Sycamore and after you lived on Completelyirrelevant. Just as I’m less likely to paint broad autobiographical sketches for those sharing my bus home than I am for my family, people who attend a ward of longstanding close relations are much more likely to over-assume interest and patience. Sad, but true.
Anyway, I don’t want discussion complaining ad nauseum about testimonies. I’ve done that here a bit, but I’m sure you didn’t mind indulging me. We’re like family on this blog. What I’d like are tailored reports from your ward on where it sits on the above two factors.
Again, weigh in with 1) the quality of your ward’s testimony meetings and 2) the closeness of your ward (with emphasis on the longevity of the closeness, i.e., many families all together for many, many years).
Also, report on other theories of testimony meeting quality, or refute or support my own. And if BLODTD gains widespread approval, we can then discuss the solution: disbanding old-school wards, busing, ward vouchers, and charter wards.
We have to solve this problem, people. Or we might lose the privilege.
Interesting. I tend to find Fast and Testimony meeting one of the few meetings that really do get at the heart of things. I find myself feeling the spirit and frankly finding myself rededicated to the gospel through it. Further I often can sense the divide between where I am and where I ought be better in F&T than anywhere else except the temple.
Plus the short testimonies simply go over better than people droning on for 10 or 20 minutes during regular sacrament talks. I don’t mind during the few times someone actually tells interesting stories and brings the spirit in. But given a choice between the typical F&T and the typical regular Sacrament service I’ll take F&T meeting every time. (Well, except for those long excruciating testimonies with little point that go on for 15 minutes)
Clark, the reason I’m complaining is that my ward’s fast and testimony meetings are composed of 90% “excruciating testimonies with little point that go on for 15 minutes.” Many I’ve spoken to have similar experiences. What you are enjoying is something I’ve seen in my life, and have loved. But it’s not something I have access to at the moment.
So I’m curious: how does your ward rate on the “closeness” scale?
My ward has some subsidized housing in it with a lot of turnover. Further a lot of the people there are students and don’t want to accept callings. So it’s a bit mixed. I think those of us in the housing area are reasonably close. We all know each other, see each other mowing the lawns and so forth. But the rest of the ward is different every three months. Plus because there is also a BYU ward covering our area, people switch between wards. It makes “closeness” rather difficult. I suspect that in any transitory ward that is difficult.
Part of it is too that we don’t have terribly good activities. Although I think that’s partially our fault. (Meaning the regular members) If the ward doesn’t have good activities there’s nothing to keep people from inviting each other over for dinner, having parties, and other such things.
But we also have a lot of young parents who are grappling with dealing with kids. That’s partially our situation. About most of the things I said I’d never do when I got married I’ve done. I’ve gone from being a wanderer always looking for adventure to being a home body who either watches TV on the couch or who is blogging. I put on 30 lbs. I’m now fairly anti-social in the sense of not doing anything.
We’ve made commitments to overcome all this. But it definitely takes a lot of planning and effort that one didn’t need as a single.
Exactly. Lots of turnover, diversity, movement= Great testimony meetings.
Ryan, our ward has a pretty high turnover, so we’re not close along the dimensions you raise, but we do have some pretty bad testimonies. I don’t mind stories at all — so long as they tie the story to some gospel principle I’m happy to hear about what really matters to them, even if that’s their recent vacation. My theory is that 90% of bad testimonies are offered by 10% of the members. In our ward the frequency a person shares their testimony is inversely related to its quality. Most of the bad testimonies are from people who tend to insist on speaking the most often — seemingly oblivious to the fact that with only 12 meetings a year, and 40 minutes per meeting, each adult member of the ward should share only 3 minutes of testimony per year. Maybe I’ll work that into my testimony in June. (I give the first testimony every-other month, so you can deduce from my formula how uplifting they are!)
This is an interesting observation. Our Brooklyn ward has a pretty high turnover. It’s mostly young, white professionals with a baby or two or none at all or it’s older single-member black/hispanic people. A strange mix, to be sure, but from my perspective it’s a pretty close-knit ward, under the circumstances.
Just yesterday after everyone’s testimonies the bishop got up and said that if there’s one thing he’s observed in his last five years as bishop it’s that we always have great testimony meetings. And he’s right. There are very few of the excruciating testimonies of which you speak, though there are some that are so loony it definitely keeps you listening (I keep putting off writing a post about the testimony of the “miracle belch”). Yesterday I heard a testimony I would usually have put in the “makes me uncomfortable” category but because it was the person that it was and she said it the way she said it I was incredibly touched.
Anyway, I always enjoy testimony meeting in our ward.
The sermon from the bishopric that precedes members’ testimonies is an unusual part of the meeting. There is nothing quite like it anywhere else in our services where someone is assigned, not to communicate any particular message, but just to uplift.
I won’t speak to my home ward’s testimony meetings but will instead relate a story from when I visited my inlaws’ ward a couple months ago. We went for a baby blessing. The father (my brother-in-law) is a convert to the church of about 2 years. His extended family (all Catholics) were in attendance. My sister-in-law’s family was also in attendance (LDS to varying degrees of activity/testimony). It was a small ward. Our family took up the entire front left section of the chapel. It was OBVIOUS there were visitors (and just as obvious that not all the visitors were members). Most of the meeting went well. Several members of my family bore strong Christ-centered testimonies. Then the Ward Mission Leader stood at the pulpit and gave a fifteen-minute rambling dissertation on the need for the members to do more missionary work, to go on splits with the elders, to find people who are receptive, and on and on. He never taught a SINGLE gospel principle, nor did he bear witness of the Savior or the church. A perfect opportunity to actually ENGAGE in missionary work with a captive audience of nonmembers in a spirit-filled room and instead he huffed and puffed. What a moron. I think this story illustrates the problem…
Let’s take a tally:
Ryan: Bad testimony meetings, longstanding, close ward. Result: Supports BLODTD.
Clark: Great testimony meetings, lots of turnover, ward divided demographically.
Result: Supports BLODTD.
Matt: Some bad testimonies, unclear on the whole; lots of turnover.
Result: unclear, possibly does not support BLODTD
Rusty: Great testimony meetings, diverse and transient ward.
Result: Supports BLODTD
Other entries?
Eric,
that reminds me of a brother in my mission who stood up on testimony meeting and said something to the effect that he loves testimony meeting because it is an opportunity to give a talk every month. And talk he did- for 15-20 minutes. Each month. Perhaps the ward mission leader there where you were had testimony meeting confused with being assigned to speak on missionary work.
Perhaps the worst (though probably most entertaining) testimony meeting I have ever heard of was when my former ward mission leader in Germany, who at the time of this incident was in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency, took the stand to testify that Joseph Smith WASN’T a prophet and that the Church WASN’T true. That caused some ripples in the Leipzig ward. He now runs an anti-mormon website in Germany called http://www.mormonentum.de (it was called mormonen.de until he was sued for trademark infringement by the church, which now uses mormonen.de as its own German home page… that’s another story…)
That said, I usually enjoy testimony meeting, even in the close-knit wards. I especially love testimonies that relate a short and relevant personal experience, then tie it in to how that person gained a testimony of some gospel principle, along with the conviction that Jesus Christ lives.
My experience, having been in several “close-knit” wards and many with high turnover (the student wards of the last several years), is that one is no better or worse than the other. A lot of what I take out of testimony meeting depends on how charitable I am towards those testifying in their own ways. There are long ramblers and concise testifiers in each situation. I can either learn to appreciate both types, or come away annoyed and thus drive away the spirit which could accompany even the long ramblers. So the answer to your question is a big “huh?!?” and an assertion that I haven’t really observed what you are talking about.
I will say that sacrament service in general was better in the singles wards I went to. Some of that was noise. (No crying rowdy kids – people paying attention more) Part of it is the age (less taking the church for granted as people are just learning) But also testimonies seemed more to the point, talks used more interesting personal experiences to make a point.
That’s not a slam on married wards. Now that I’m finally married, as I mentioned, it is hard to do all the things you thought you would when you are single. But a perfectly quiet sacrament administration certainly does allow a somewhat different degree of meditation.
Of course having a kid makes it all worthwhile and has its own blessings. Further I think the focus in a family ward is on teaching kids, as it ought be. Especially in a place like Provo with few investigators or recent members.
I’ve been in student wards for the last 5 years, and the experience I’ve had with testimony meetings indicates that quality is more determined by the tone set by the bishopric than by the closeknittedness of the ward. By tone, I’m referring more to the bishopric’s attitude towards the ward than the tone in the 1st testimony born in each meeting, although I think that 1st testimony is really important.
I was in one ward while at BYU that was not at all close-knit, and was headed by a relatively lazy bishopric (the bishop never bothered to learn my name, for example). Testimony meetings in that ward were unbearable; I remember one particularly bad example of a ward member who thought it would be a good idea to sing his testimony.
Two wards after, I was in another BYU student ward (married, this time), in which the bishopric actively engaged in helping to improve the spiritual well-being of members of the ward, i.e. I felt like the Bishop cared about me, while that wasn’t the case in ward in the previous example. Our testimony meetings were among the best I’ve ever attended.
I assume that the married ward probably had less turnover than single student ward, but I can’t compare these examples with a ward with a really stable population…so count this as a weak counter-example to the BLODTD theory.
Just so ya’all know, I live in a true Zion ward. No bad testimonies. True saints who speak from the heart in gratitude, alive in Christ who shines in their countenances. They know because such truth and knowledge are realities alive in them now. Man I have learned a lot. We have a lot of older people. Very few babies and young families — though those that are in the ward are great. Everyone (really, I’m not kidding) is other-centered and got over themselves a long time ago. I know Zion because I live there.
Ryan, you might suggest to your Bishop that an upcoming 5th Sunday combined meeting on the basics of real testimony bearing might be a good idea. Bishoprics have a lot of freedom in planning those meetings and there is a lot of material to draw from in conference reports and the like.
Since it’s a group lesson rather than a one-on-one, no one should feel singled out as a guilty one. Also, since it’s the Sunday before a Fast Sunday by definition, people have a chance to try out the new rules right away.
BTW, we have great testimony meetings, but there are those who are going to tell about their trip to Aunt Tillie’s no matter what you do.
This reminds me of an article I once read by a partner at my husbands’ former law firm. Funny stuff, and I can totally relate:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/71/story_7102_1.html#cont
Oh, and Ryan, we have quite a close ward, and our F&T meetings are a nice mix of bland-but-brief (younger couples with younger kids), travelogues that go on and on (mostly empty-nesters discussing their career options and their grandkids) and sometimes strange, but usually inspiring (new converts).
Ryan, I know I’m not quite old enough to say “when I was your age…” but I’m going to anyway. Maybe you’re just not *old* enough for testimony meeting. I used to feel like not very many testimony meetings I went to were very good–people didn’t do it right, didn’t have a point, had annoying mannerisms, gave travelogues, etc.
Now, in my dotage, I really like almost all of the testimony meetings I attend. I *like* the bad ones–I love what they reveal about the people giving them, and I love the fact that we’re forced to accept those revelations with something with at least a surface resemblance to loving patience and forbearance. I like it that the spiritual and the mundane are hopelessly muddled and mixed. I like it that people believe God helps them find their keys and that believing that helps them get through the day feeling less alone. I like it that men cry. I like it that women perform rituals of embarrassment about their tears but cry anyway. I like it that kids get up and play at being Saints (ok, this is the hardest one for me to like, but on my most charitable days I do). I like it that we grownups get up and play at being Saints, month after month going through the motions of Pentecost, so that every once in a while, grace flames out and we glimpse the Spirit rushing by.
[Just pinch the baby and take her out when it gets really bad–practice the apologetic dad look at home so you can do it without smirking :)]
I agree with AB. The quality of a testimony meeting begins with the leadership of a ward. There is something about fostering love and the spirit of cooperation that does a lot to grow people in a spritial manner.
As an aside for me, I believe that the best use of a testimony meeting is for people who are moving to a new area to check out any given ward. Since testimony meeting does bring out the crazies; this is helpful for me as I like knowing just what my family will be dealing with.
Ryan what a wonderful idea to have voucher, busing and magnet wards etc… Let’s call this “No Saint Left Behind”. The end result would be that under-performing wards get their funding cut from SLC :).
On ward leadership and closeness–
I spent yesterday in a small rural branch. The branch itself is very close-knit, and the testimony meeting was terrific. I don’t know what their testimony meetings are usually like, but at the beginning of yesterday’s meeting, the branch president suggested that everyone think of what they would want to tell people if they knew that they would be dying within the week. Only one person specifically took up his suggestion, but all of the testimonies were relatively short and actually consisted of testimonies of various elements of the gospel.
Of course, he also took some time to instruct the branch on the proper way to close a testimony (not “in the name of thy son”, as we are not praying). Unfortunately, he became self-conscious when he closed his own testimony, flubbed it, and closed in the name of “our son”. At least one branch member followed suit.
On F&T days my wife skips the tearful Relief society and sacrament, as do I. Otherwise she goes regularly. She says it is offensive to her that women feel they need to show that they feel the spirit only behind kleenex. Matter of fact most of my family dislikes F&T meetings, as do I. I find there is little spirit shown in them and most people bear their testimony for show.
Maybe I am a cynic, but F&T meetings may have outlived their usefulness and become counter productive.
I think the best think about F&T is what Kristine mentions. It seems people are more willing to open up about themselves. Some don’t know how to communicate well and thus the boring bits. But overall there is something special about it that typically isn’t found in other talks or lessons.
Great point Kristine.
I go to a student Branch, but we all know each other very well. Our testimony meetings are very good, but we do get those rambling on type testimonies as well. We have an interesting mix of returned missionaries and recent converts, which probably explains it. I’d say overall I get a lot out of our testimony meetings. We usually have a line of people waiting to get to the pulpit.
Yes.
I haven’t heard anyone address the real problem — the stream of six and under that sometimes monopolizes part of the meeting. The saints in our ward have taken the direction from the 1st Presidencies letter to the degree that parents do go up and whisper a child’s testimony to them — but I still cringe when the children come up. I know others say they enjoy the testimonies of the children.
How do others feel?
Memorable testimonies (just for grins):
1. In my home ward growing up, a non-member married to a semi-active member got up while the sacrament was being passed and told everyone how wrong and terrible we were until the Bishop was able to drag her off.
2. Crazy lady in Paris bore testimony of UFO’s.
3. Same lady in Paris bore testimony of artifical insemination.
My experiences support Ryan’s theory – I used to go to a small family branch (not a ward) with several members of 30+ years standing, and I was not always inspired by the testimonies they bore. Even though I did, as Kristine mentions, enjoy learning about the people bearing testimony, I did not enjoy listening to the chapter long scripture readings a certain Brother felt prompted to share every month.
Now I go to a YSA ward, which although it doesn’t have a lot of turnover, was only established a year ago, and the testimony meetings are filled with the Spirit. There are a few outliers, naturally, but our Bishop has been very good in reminding the congregation to bear a “brief testimony of gospel principles”, and to remind one Brother in particular: “no jokes.”
Worst F&TM was in the Provo 8th ward which I know many here went to at some time or other. One guy went up and spoke for 15 minutes about the struggles of overcoming a, um, how to put this delicately… A “private matter” that some young men have problems with as youth and which often is prescribed cold showers to deal with. Only this guy was 28.
This ward was created 25 years ago. Its membership has remained fairly constant since then. The F&T meetings are an embarrassment. Our new bishop (moved in from outside the ward) gave the members a pep-talk about how to bear testimony. The next Fast Sunday, his direction was all but forgotten. Of the testimonies given, only two people bore direct testimony of the restoration, the Book of Mormon, a living prophet, and Jesus Christ. One was a missionary; the other was the bishop’s councilor. Some of the speakers didn’t even cover a gospel topic.
In defense of F&T meeting, when done properly, it is my favorite meeting.
Clark, I don’t know why a guy who is 28 would have a problem with a “personal matter” like the one you describe. Perhaps he just needs more practice.
But enough on that subject, lets discuss testimony meetings. I believe I have a unique perspective on this issue as my wife is a non-member. I have cringed many times at things that have been said in testimony meetings that have become ingrained in our latter-day saint speach patterns: “A person I know at work/school/play sports with is really nice, too bad they don’t share the same standards as me…Our sins are forgiven when we baptize non-members into the church…..we can see the spirits of the dead in the Temple……..that person would make a good Mormon if they would just stop drinking coffee…” etc.
Oddly enough, my wife has said on many occaisions that F&T is her favorite meeting, and that she prefers it over general Sacrament meetings, with talks that are long and boring, and generally contain more content/comments from the speakers that are offensive to her non-member status.
As to our ward, it is a prime example of the truthfulness of the BLODTD theory. Old school long time members in an inner city ward. Nearly dead and Newlyweds, sacrament is typically passed by the High Priests. On any given Sunday you are likely to hear anything, which keeps you tuned in, but is not neccessarily condusive to feeling the spirit.
People should be moved by the Spirit to bear testimony, not by the fact that there is an open microphone.
Isn’t the real problem that those who are bearing non-testimony testimonies don’t really have legitimate testimonies of the Savior, the Church, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, so they substitute something else to assuage their angst at not having the real thing?
This can take the form of a Thankimony, a Friendimony, a Wardimony, a Travelmony, or any combination of the above.
(I know this comes across as both judgmental and problematic to accurately assess, but it is at least one possibility)
As far as Ryan’s basic premise of bad testimony being a product of tight-knit, long-established wards, I agree that there may be a tendency toward this (pretty scary when you consider that these wards are probably raising a healthy chunk of the next generation of missionaries, who will get their ideas about what a testimony is by watching the adults in their ward). Bad testimony does exist in student wards, though, and sometimes in abundance. I can’t agree though, that we should seek to impose distance as a solution to these problems. The people I’m most interested in sharing my testimony with are those I’m closest to, i.e., my immediate family. This group is followed closely by the young men I’ve been called to work with, my home teaching families, etc. The realization that needs to take place is that spirit-driven testimony has transformative, even saving power for the attentive listener. Think about Enos, or Alma the Younger, or Nephi, or Brigham Young, and the eternal ramifications of pure and powerful testimony for their lives. I love this quote from Brigham Young:
“If all the talent, tact, wisdom, and refinement of the world had been sent to me with the Book of Mormon, and had declared, in the most exalted of earthly eloquence, the truth of it, undertaking to prove it by learning and worldly wisdom, they would have been to me like the smoke which arises only to vanish away. But when I saw a man without eloquence, or talents for public speaking, who could only say, ‘I know, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of the Lord,’ the Holy Ghost proceeding from that individual illuminated my understanding, and light, glory, and immortality were before me. I was encircled by them, filled with them, and I knew for myself that the testimony of the man was true…. My own judgment, natural endowments, and education bowed to this simple, but mighty testimony. There sits the man who baptized me, (brother Eleazer Miller.) It filled my system with light, and my soul with joy. The world, with all its wisdom and power, and with all the glory and gilded show of its kings or potentates, sinks into perfect insignificance, compared with the simple, unadorned testimony of the servant of God.” (_JD_ 1:91)
That is the type of testimony that we must bear, and cultivate in those we have stewardship over.
I’m puzzled. People are supposed to bear their testimonies, but apparently they’re not supposed to allow real life experiences to serve as the prompting for what gets them to stand up and speak to the congregation in the first place. Just the facts ma’am. Tell us what you know, but I’m not sure we want to know why you claim to know it.
I guess it would be better to just install a Rameumptom in each ward chapel, and have everyone rattle off the same standard “testimony” regarding that which they know to be true and leave it at that.
Amen, Mark N.
Don’t forget, though, these are people who actually make lists of things that annoy them about the speakers on Sunday.
Mark,
I’m not sure of the source of the confusion. This isn’t an attempt to do away with personal experience as a component of testimony (correct me if I’m wrong, Ryan); rather, it is an attempt to help us all focus our testimony bearing in a manner that brings souls to Christ.
I think it is appropriate here to note Joseph’s idea that all “things which pertain to our religion are only appendages” to the Atonement of Christ (TPJS, p. 121). The more appendage-like a principal becomes, the less appropriate it is in testimony meeting. This is not to say that it can’t be discussed, but rather, that someone wishing to speak to it should connect the dots for us. Tell us how this is related to the core of the gospel, the Atonement.
Thus, a brief anecdote may be very appropriate in the context of “I believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ because (anecdote)” or “Through (anecdote), my testimony in the Savior has been strengthened.” This is especially true when the audience is helped to understand WHY the particular anecdote helped strengthen the speaker’s testimony/understanding of the Atonement. (I guess I disagree with your conclusion that we don’t want to know why you claim to know things). The more tangential the anecdote or personal experience becomes, the more help the audience may need in connecting the dots, otherwise it may sound like the speaker is really rambling. For example, I recall one testimony meeting on my mission where a brother talked about a personal experience about going on a walk in the forest and stumbling across some wild peas. My initial inclination was that this was a really weird story. He proceeded to testify as to why this particular experience, in ways that were unique to him, was a witness to him of God’s love for him as an individual (it would require too much detail, but it really ended up as a sweet testimony, rather than just an odd story).
Just so you don’t think I am advocating the death of personal experience, I’ll share a personal experience that I happened to share in my own ward this Sunday. This experience has changed the way I think about bearing testimony. A few months ago, I found myself in a trial. The opposing side, the Plaintiff, claimed that they had entered into a contract with my client. The alleged contract was for the exclusive sale and purchase of a particular type of goods for a term of ten years. My client buys a lot of this particular type of goods, and consequently, the potential money to be exchanged under this contract was a fairly healthy figure. The plaintiff’s biggest problem was that no paper contract had ever been signed. Instead, they claimed that an oral agreement had been reached. There were lots of problems with their case which many of the other attorneys reading this will recognize, but the first question that had to be answered was whether an actual oral agreement had been reached. In this regard, their first witness was incredibly important. He had been the sole negotiator for the Plaintiff during the period in which a contract was being discussed. His testimony proved incredibly harmful to the Plaintiff. Rather than really address the question of whether an agreement had been reached, he talked almost solely about what he subjectively felt, without saying why. He testified that he had made a proposal, and that he personally just “felt” that an agreement had been reached. He didn’t make any representations as to what my client’s negotiators had said or done in order to give him that impression. At the end of the trial, the judge ruled from the bench, and noted that this testimony was very harmful. He (the judge) could not conclude that an agreement had been reached because the witness had failed to really speak to that issue.
As I went home that night, I thought about the opportunities that I have to bear testimony, like this witness, and wondered if I don’t make similar mistakes. The questions that my audience should be trying to answer are much more important than “was there a contract?”. They are questions as important as “Was Jesus truly the Messiah?” or “Was Joseph Smith truly a prophet of the Lord?” I have got to speak to those questions clearly, and in a manner that leaves the decisionmakers in my audience with no reason to doubt, like the judge in my trial. We have to present evidence that is relevant to the questions before our audience, and whether it is nice to travel to Nauvoo, or whether our ward is the best ward in the church, etc., are not those questions.
Our ward has been ‘landlocked’ (no new housing) for about 5 years. Not many move in/out. About 3/4 mile by 3/4 mile. It’s mostly solid middle class and middle age, there are quite a few teenagers. Last Sunday F&T (and all of them) are very uplifting and spiritual.
This is evidence AGAINST BLODTD.
Mark, I personally love it when people use personal experience to testify of God. I think getting up there and in 1 minute simply say what you believe typically unhelpful. However people who drone on a long time also tend to be problematic. Now simulataneously, so that I don’t get myself in trouble like in the mother’s day thread, let me say that I think there are times that’s appropriate. (Either case) However in general it’s not and you simply are boring the audience and detracting from the spirit.
But if you can find something in your life that really helped your spirit and testimony and tell it in a few minutes, then nothing is better. . . (IMO)
Jordan Fowles, goodness gracious, you just can’t let go of the fact that someone wants to improve the quality of our meetings by making some suggestions to members, can you? Even if it’s done in the most sensitive way? Even if the suggestions are correct? Even if they’re straight from the Ensign?
Have you ever read the teacher improvement manual? It’s filled with such directives: “Do not talk too much during your lesson” “Teach the truths of the gospel and not other things” “Be very careful telling sensational stories” and so on. They are suggestions backed up with solid reasoning. And I’m guessing the the authors have sat through a LOT of lessons, and maybe even made notes on what works and what doesn’t as they were watching people teach. These are NOT ad hominem attacks.
People who don’t ever receive feedback or correction often lose touch with reality and go nuts. Think of some Hollywood stars. Think of ruthless dictators. Surrounding yourself with yes men/women who never supply course corrections is a good way to enter a state of psychosis.
Angus,
I am all for improvement. But the “improvements” suggested here are always so nit-picky and show such a lack of compassion and empathy to people who have trouble speaking. Not to mention the fact that I swear people just make up half the stuff they rip on. Either that, or I am INCREDIBLY unobservant or just plain dumb, because I never notice most of the things that seem to drive people here nuts.
And notice that this “feedback” is not directed towards me, so there is no problem here with receiving “feedback.” But there is a difference between honest and improving feedback and nit-picky observations about things that probably don’t even exist except in the minds of those who create them (unless I am really blind, which could also be the case). I always enjoy testimony meeting, even when there are long, drawn-out testimonies. The burden is on me to feel the Spirit, and I accept the challenge.
It is unnerving to know that so many people in the congregation on Sunday, apparently judging from the people here, won’t listen to your talk or testimony, but will instead be making lists of all the slight ways you might have been annoying.
I love the teacher improvement manual. It says the things you say it does, but in a very loving way. It does not talk about how much the undesired behavior “sucks” or make fun of those who do the undesired behaviors, but rather it seeks to uplift. Give feedback, perfect the Saints, but don’t henpeck them to death.
I really don’t appreciate being compared with those who surround themselves with “yes-men,” especially since I have spent my entire life so far pushing myself to the limits of my endurance in so many ways, and practically begging for corrective criticism to enjoy the greatest improvement always possible and maximize my potential. Bring it on- I can take it. But it still bothers me to think of all the people out there trying so hard to find something wrong with whatever is said that they will completely miss any spiritual message sought to be conveyed. Sad.
Oh- and I have spent several of those years teaching, both professionally and in Church, which is why I perhaps haven’t had to sit through these lessons you all complain about- I am usually teaching them. And probably, based on what I see here, having lots of people rip on me behind my back on blogs or at home instead of approaching me personally to tell me how I might improve.
One more thing- It is apparent from what Angus said that I am coming across much more harshly than I mean to- if you could hear me talking I don’t think you would take me quite so seriously or read as much antipathy into my words as it seems easy to do on the internet.
There are some quite good suggestions here, I just found the tone of the original post mildly flippant and therefore slightly annoying. But mostly I am just perplexed by the idea that people actually critique the speakers at church- it’s not something I had really thought much about before reading in the bloggernacle and it is always somewhat a surprise to me, and sometimes a shock, to hear what other people think about during lessons and sacrament meeting.
But I am all for improvement, and of course admit that there are ways for all of us to improve our own speaking skills (preferably without concentrating on the shortcomings of everyone else around us).
My $.02:
I’ve been in the church 16 years. All kinds of different wards in different places. By and large, testimony meetings are uplifting and spiritually edifying. The vast majority of people in my estimation do their best to give sincere, heartfelt testimonies of the Savior, the Gospel, the Church, etc. The problem I have is a personal one and something on which I need to work myself. That is, I can be sort of judgmental against people who I feel are not sincere or who are not really bearing testimony or who get up for the umpteenth straight month. It bothers me when people don’t really consider the audience and how people might react to what they are saying. These few thoughtless individuals get me a little upset and I lose the Spirit. I know this is my fault and I need to repent of it, but at the same time it would be nice if everyone (as opposed to most people) gave some real thought to what they are going to say and to the admonition in the D&C that we only teach by the spirit of truth and not some other way. Most of the time, I love testimony meeting and look forward to it each month. And, lest my earlier comment be misunderstood, I believe the Lord can work around the occasional longwinded overzealous ward mission leader.
Still at work, Eric?!?
Heck no. I left at 6. You?
Still here. For at least 2 more hours. 🙂
Heh. Time for me to get some shut-eye. 🙂
Laugh it up.
By the way, I thought your story was good and not hypercritical. I could imagine the scene as you described it. Maybe that is because I know the flesh and blood Eric, whereas all these other people are just virtual to me so it’s difficult for me to picture them actually observing something real.
I say keep testimony meeting. I like the drama.
Just a story (true): We have a wonderful woman in our ward who laughs well at herself. She snorted very loudly during a testimony once and we’ve never let her forget it. Then a few weeks ago she got up to bear her testimony, tripped, and twisted her ankle and had to have somebody half carry her up. Last week, her daughter tripped over somebody’s feet when she got up to bear her testimony. We love it. Her daughter just said (first, before bearing a fervent testimony): “I love you, Mom.” I thank her often for being a klutz because it makes it easier for all of us to be human. She’s also very beautiful, which makes it nice, too.
“My hypothesis: The more tightly-knit the ward, and the longer that ward has existed with most of its members, the worse the testimony meetings.”
Light-bulb moment! LOL! We have moved to a nearly dead/newly wed ward, & I have never been to such irreverant & inane tesitmony mtgs. EVER! Hardly anyone mentions the Book of Mormon or The Prophet Joseph Smith. RS testimony mtgs. are even worse – we can’t even get our sisters to share their testimony mtgs. I gave the lesson this past testimony mtg., & went over because of all the announcements so there wasn’t time for testimonies. Normally, I would feel bad, but in this ward, I don’t. I think the time was better spent than looking at all the sisters look at their feet. What is up with that? You can’t tell me these ladies don’t know the purpose & the benefits of bearing their testimonies!
My pet-peeve. I probably need to repent too. 🙂
Anyway – I like your thoughts.
C.S. Lewis in “Mere Christianity” says Christians are at various points like eggs. You cannot stay an egg. You either go rotten or you become a chicken. IMHO, you get bad testimony meetings when the folks who get up ro speak are the ones who are not progressing into chickens, but instead are trying to stay the course and, without noticing, have become rotten eggs. You cannot stay put.
In my years of church experience, the testimony meetings are good when the people who speak get up to bear witness of truth as prompted by the spirit. Often they speak of spiritual insight that they have recieved that week through intense effort and striving to become more obedient to God’s will. God is central in their lives and permeates everyting they do.
I have seen this in big wards and small wards, wards with static membership and wards with high turnover, old wards and young wards. It really is just the people themselves and their relationship to God. Thinking that it is the people and their relationship to eachother seems to be the sort of thinking that is part of the problem in the first place – it takes it to the realm of the natural man and keeps it there.
It seems that bad/weak testimony meetings can not be tied to any sort of human to human relationships, but only an outcome of bad/weak human to God relationships.
If you want better testimoney meetings it seems one would want to increase their personal purity and their relationship with God and then get up and share pure testimony. People will either be very uncomfortable with it or very attracted to it and the Spirit can take it from there.
I wish I’d seen this thread earlier. Clark Goble and Kristine are right on. Testimony meeting is always, always the best meeting I go to, wherever I go, because I go for the people.