I get myself in trouble yet again

In this thread below, I mention that my wife has some pretty insightful thoughts on feminism and Mormonism. Of course, this raises the obvious question: what are they? And of course I never thought to ask my wife whether she minds my posting such a challenge on the blog without consulting her. She is not much of a “blog” person and indulges my hobby because she loves me. But I keep dragging her in.

So, after much playful cajoling, has agreed to post some of her thoughts. But she would like some guidelines and specific targets to aim at, so I’m respectfully asking that the first step come from some of the feminist Mormon housewives out there. What are your primary beefs, so to speak? Having visited FMH, I would guess most of them have to do with the role of patriarchy in the Church and the definition of what an acceptable role for women is in the Church. I would surmise there are many women who wonder why only men have the priesthood. I am certain there are many women who are concerned about men who think that, because they have the priesthood and are supposed to be the “head” of the household, somehow exercise unrighteous dominion over their wives and families. (Priesthood leaders spend a lot of time trying to prevent this from happening, but we know it is nevertheless widespread).

So, Lisa, Kristine, Mary and others, can we have some feedback? What are your primary concerns? Post and let the dialogue begin!

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About Geoff B.

Geoff B graduated from Stanford University (class of 1985) and worked in journalism for several years until about 1992, when he took up his second career in telecommunications sales. He has held many callings in the Church, but his favorite calling is father and husband. Geoff is active in martial arts and loves hiking and skiing. Geoff has five children and lives in Colorado.

16 thoughts on “I get myself in trouble yet again

  1. Actually, I can’t really call myself a Feminist Mormon Housewife, just a sympathiser. I personally don’t have many of the issues that some of the otehrs have, though I agree with some. Basically my personal feeling is that any of the inequalities and discrepencies that are found in these days will be taken care of. I don’t even have a problem with my husband being the “head” of the household, because in reality, we jointly make decisions and there is no battle of wills, etc etc.

    I also am not concerned that men are the only one’s who have the authority to exercise the priesthood, because women actually DO have it, they just don’t have authority to exercise it in every day activity.

    The unrighteous dominion irritates me sometimes when I see it among others, and men who think they have some sort of superiority over women because of being men or whatever.

    But I do feel that FMH is a great forum for discuissing concerns and one of the things that does botehr me is people who don’t like to hear feminists discuss their concerns.

    I do think a lot of the problems that seem apparent in the Church sometimes, have their basis in society. Sure the world has come a long way in making women “equal” but in reality it is still dragging its heels. The differences between women and men don’t make one better or worse. Just different. But because of long tradition, there are still some men who see women as weak, less able, what-have-you. And I would like to see this attitude truly changed.

    Actually it’s the division between men and women that bothers me. A couple of nights ago at my book club we were discussing birth and one person (a woman) said she doesn’t believe men belong at birth, that is’t strictly a female event. Well, I don’t agree. My husband has not only been present at both of our births, he has been a true participant, not just holding my hand, but being the first one to touch his babies. Now that can go into a long overdrawn discussion on a different thread I know. But my main beef isn’t necessarily with how women are treated, only, but how the differences are percieved as dividing us and trying to create some sort of alien existence and expanse that neither will be able to cross.

    Anyway, it’s probably Lisa or Kristine who you want opinions from 🙂

  2. I’m LDS and somewhat feminist (compared to many) but disagree with some of the feminist agenda, for instance, the idea that equality means women must become like men.
    I don’t want to be a man. I do, however, believe in equality of the sexes. To me, this means that women and men are both equally respected.
    The feminist in me doesn’t like women being treated as second class because they don’t have a job, or they don’t have the priesthood, or because they are barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. But this does NOT mean I don’t want to be pregnant. Or that I want the priesthood. Or that I need a job to feel fulfilled.
    I want women to be given respect for what they can and do contribute. I want respect for my feminine qualities as well as my masculine ones.
    In my marriage I feel we are equal partners, just as the Proclamation on the Family says we can be. My husband is the sole provider and yet I feel no power struggle about money. I’ve had 3 pregnancies and 3 deliveries and feel no resentment that I’m the one who had to do it.
    I was lucky to be raised in a home where my parents were partners. There was respect on both sides. The priesthood was never an excuse to be in charge.
    My husband has never discounted my opinion, my experience, or me because of my gender. I’ve never felt it was ok to treat him poorly or criticize him just because he’s a man.
    Sexism is there. And it is there in some people in the church. The church doesn’t have any perfect people though, and I don’t blame the church if some people think or act in a less than Christlike way. Sexism isn’t the only problem in life people deal with.
    Feminists can also be sexist. There are those who look down on me for being content “just” raising children. THere are those women who truly don’t respect men–who hate men, or who lump all men into the category of abusers and rapists. Their sexism bothers me too.

    “Having visited FMH, I would guess most of them have to do with the role of patriarchy in the Church and the definition of what an acceptable role for women is in the Church. I would surmise there are many women who wonder why only men have the priesthood.”

    SOrry, but women and the priesthood is just not an issue for me, or for any of active LDS friends and family. We are intelligent, educated and view women as very capable. We don’t view men as superior to us. We don’t view them as inferior either. We expect to be respected by our fathers, husbands and brothers. We see occasional blatent sexism, either by acquaintances, or even ward members. I think that if sexism isn’t a problem in your own family, it is something easily dealt with at an occasional dinner or meeting. I do have casual friends or acquaintances that have husbands or fathers who do not respect them, I know that the gospel does not teach them to do this. And church leaders make every effort to teach people to rise above evil influences.

  3. Perhaps this article will stir some debate. The professor (excommunicated from the Church) raises some issues that are definitely worth discussing. Thanks to FMH for the link.

  4. I’m not sure gender equality in leadership is something that is so important that it is worth that much discussion. What exactly is the reason behind complaints about there are no pictures of a female god, or no pictures in the Ensign of female leaders?
    Does it really matter if, since I’m from Washington state, there are leaders from Washington state or not? Affirmative action, just for affirmative actions sake, it pretty unimportant. Or that there are people my exact same height, in positions of leadership. I’m tall, and I can’t be led by those who are shorter than me? Affirmative action, just for affirmative actions sake, it pretty unimportant. If you are talking about social problems, or political power, yes, these issues are important. But this isn’t government. This isn’t democracy. This isn’t power. This is the gospel.
    Sure the church has money, and influences millions of people, but this is God’s church. And when we serve we are to serve him, not do our own will. And we are all unprofitable servants, but the Lord will use us as he sees fit.
    Tuscano mentions women’s self-image. Is that the reason behind her desire for women having 50% of the leadership positions? If women’s self-image is the issue here, what do the scriptures tell us?
    I know what to do to be happy. The gospel tells us. We pray. We submit ourselves to God. We follow the commandments. We have a change of heart. We are unprofitable servants and nothing we can do will ever amount to much, but through the Atonement we can be healed, we can be comforted, we can be strong and we can perfect.
    Tuscano’s desires have nothing to do with helping people live the gospel. Male only priesthood has nothing to do with whether or not we can feel Christ’s atonement.
    How much of a forum is needed in the church to complain about things? There is much that the Lord requires. In fact, he requires everything. I doubt we will ever truly understand all things that he asks. People ask so many why questions. I have a few dozen higher up on my list than women and the priesthood. And most of them have no answer, and I don’t expect one in this life either. COmpared to so many other struggles in life, I find accepting God’s will on this no problem at all.

  5. My concern is the lack of female role models. We are told to follow the example of the Brethren, but no matter how well I follow their example, I’m never going to be an elderly priesthood holding married male Mormon. Christ is also supposed to be the perfect example for both men and women. So the perfect woman is a man? And the perfect man is as much a woman as he is a man? Yes, there is much to emulate in Christ, but I do miss the presence of a female deity.

    The idea that all of my examples and role models are men bothers me very much. There are simply not enough token women leaders to correct that imbalance.

  6. A good approach to the women-in-the-scriptures/role model issue is “Women in the Book of Mormon” , JBMS 11:1 by Camille Williams, an LDS lawyer.

  7. My favourite women of the bible and the Book of Mormon are Deborah, Akish, Mary (mother of Jesus) Martha, Mary, Mary Magdelene, Ruth, Naomi, Rachel, Leah, oh my the list goes on and on. I can’t even rememebr everyone right now, this is off the top of my head.

    I have to agree with JKS in comment #2. This is how I feel.

    I have to truly admire some modern day women too…Emma Smith is my hero. She was strong and she didn’t shy away from her opinion. Sheri Dew is a wonderful example. Sis Hinckley was too. There are a lot of women to really admire. I admire strength and serenity in women.

  8. Is she going to let us post it? I’d really like that. I don’t really have a set of grievences that I can list off the top of my head. I’ll think about it and get back to you.

  9. Mary and JKS both qualified their remarks by saying they are “somewhat feminist” or by saying that other women might be able to better articulate a feminist position. As we all know, “feminism” means very many different things. I really appreciate the sort of feminism they have described, and consider myself one of these sorts of feminists.

    I especially agree with the idea that women and men have equal (infinite) intrinsic value, but this does not imply that the two genders are the same. Women are better suited for some things, men for others.

    Like Mary, I agree that some men still view women “traditionally”, as in being weak or less-able. I bristle at the intolerance of traditionalists who don’t feel that feminist concerns deserve to be discussed. I also bristle at the many different forms of reverse-sexism extant in some feminist camps, such as what JKS described. An individual woman is not a “gender-traitor” because she chooses to stay at home, yet some feminist discourse either pities or castigates her for her choice.

    Another form of reverse-sexism is when men are not able to talk about the good contributions that men can make. The rhetorical climate sometimes is such that a statement that talks, for instance, about a Father’s role as “protector” or “provider”, can cause offense or stir up “feminist” complaints.

    I don’t think equality of the sexes is served by creating an environment where men feel guilty for being men, just as women should not feel belittled or inferior for being female, nor for the choices they make.

  10. I’d be interested to hear (in a few words) what it is that you like about Deborah, Mary? I admit that I don’t know her story very well. I’m afraid that, in listing women from the scriptures, I’d probably remember her close to last, if at all. My favorites from the Old Testament are Esther, Eve (like you couldn’t tell from the series at my blog), and Miriam. Of course I also admire the other women you mention.
    Jim, I like what you say. Feminism does have many facets. It often gets a bad rap, where it’s regarded as another “f” word. But I think that if you believe that women and men are equal (by which I mean that neither is better than the other, not that they are or should be exactly the same), then you are a feminist. I also think that you have to decide what it means for you.
    I agree with Janey that there is a lack of female role models for women. Toscano also said: “Overall, the impression given is that women are a very important part of the church, and contribute to it in many ways, but men lead and define it.” I do believe that leaders are called of God to serve. I believe that God loves all of his children and knows each one of us intimately. He is fair and his plan (including our earth experience) is designed to help us grow. Each of our contributions is important. But at the same time I sometimes feel a little uncomfortable as a female in a mostly male-centric and male-defined institution.

  11. “I sometimes feel a little uncomfortable as a female in a mostly male-centric and male-defined institution. “

    I’m a little surprised, actually. I go to church. I’m currently in Relief Society (all female), before that I was in YW (all women) and have been in Primary previously for years (all women), my Sunday School teacher is a woman. All of my Presidency meetings have been all women.
    I’ve never been a President, so I don’t go to meetings with the bishop or other Priesthood leaders. I don’t hang out with all those men in the middle of the Ensign all that often.
    I visit teach women, with a woman partner.
    Sacrament meeting has many women speakers. Enrichment is all women. Ward activities are usually planned by mostly women.
    What am I missing? It doesn’t feel male-centric to me.

    The role model issue, is also one that I don’t quite understand. Do people actually look around for role models? Granted, my mother was a pretty good role model. Perhaps that is why I don’t need more. I just am content to do my own thing. I’m an individual with my own strengths and goals. Sure, occasionally I notice something about someone I would like to emulate. But I find these things in my friends. Not in my leaders. Do I see my leaders interact with their children enough to think “Oh, that’s a great discipline idea.” or “Maybe when my kids are teenagers I’ll try that.” I don’t see my leader’s retirement accounts so I can’t say “what a great portfolio, maybe I’ll try that” When my son was first diagnosed with a speech disorder, I was desperate for information, professionals with knowledge and for a support group to trade notes with someone. Friendships are often made based on what kind of person you need in your life right now….things you have in common so you can understand each other and can support each other.
    Don’t most of you look around at your friends and find things about them that give you ideas about what you want to do with your life. Do other people only look to general authorities for “role models?”
    I read magazines. I discuss things with friends. I read message boards about health issues. I pick out what I think might be useful right now in my life. I read books and find interesting points of view.
    I don’t need Sheri Dew as a role model. I enjoy her talks…I think.
    Janey, my question to you is, how useful is a role model, really to you? Maybe I’m the odd one out, not looking around for leaders as role models? How many women would I really hold up as a perfect role model. How many men would I hold up as a perfect role model. I don’t really think I’m a judgemental person, but I’m happy being me, and I don’t think I make the exact same decisions as anyone else. I don’t have the exact same goals. The exact same personality quirks.
    We are all such individuals. Everyone has their own lot in life to deal with.
    I need my husband. My parents. My friends. And I need answers to prayers to guide me.
    Perhaps having a good role models in both my parents was enough to get me through this life. Is that why I don’t feel the lack that others do?
    What do you guys think?

  12. JKS, I’ve long wondered about the gender-role model thing. Does the gender of the person you respect really matter that much? Can I confess that one of my highest role models in the church is Zina Huntington? More so than any other figure in church history?

    I can understand why some might want gender to matter to role models. But I think that says something tremendously sad about our culture.

  13. I’m definitely with JKS in all the points she has made so far in #2, 4 & 13.

    And I’m with Clarke Goble in finding that the gender of the person I respect doesn’t really matter that much. I don’t want to become that person, just emulate their good qualities.

    To me Christ is the ultimate role model, because he has all the virtues that both men and women who are trying to become more like God are striving for. The fact that in our culture certain virtues are often categorized as “masculine” or “feminine” shouldn’t blind us to the fact that we are all asked to become obedient, compassionate, strong, forgiving, just, courageous, wise, honest, obedient, merciful, nurturing, meek, etc.

    Geoff B—
    I’m sure many of us are anxious to read your wife’s insights on feminism and Mormonism. So far, most of those commenting on this thread don’t seem to have a long list of “beefs.” Will she delay posting until all the FMH bloggers have commented here?

  14. RoAnn, my wife is working on a post. I would expect to see it sometime Tuesday or Wednesday. It will be worth waiting for.

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