Guest Post: The Pledge of Allegiance

by Daylan Darby

For the last couple of years I’ve been increasingly bothered by the pledge of allegiance (I’ve got two boys in scouts, so I’ve had many opportunities to pledge). Just recently, I’ve stumbled across this web page, which explains a bit about the history of the pledge (yes, I know there exists other, perhaps better, sites but this was the most recent I’ve read).

Does it matter that the pledge was instantiated and propagated by a socialist?

What is the difference between “swear” (3 Nephi 12:33-36) and “pledge”?

Should we give our allegiance to anybody (or anything) other than God?

Do we really mean (or even know) what we say when reciting the pledge?

Are we sinners in the sight of God for teaching our children to pledge?

Do we brush these thoughts away because, “Gosh if the GA’s do it, it must certainly be ok?”

Did the Jehovah’s Witnesses get this one right?

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I was born in 1961 and raised in the countryside of Olympia WA. After serving a mission in Munich, Germany I married my high school sweetheart Luana (who served in Argentina at the same time). I graduated from BYU 1986 in computer science and have worked in the field ever since. My favorite church calling is Primary Pianist (served 9 out of the last 10 years). Greetings All from West Jordan, Utah!

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42 thoughts on “Guest Post: The Pledge of Allegiance

  1. the pledge was instantiated and propagated by a socialist?

    A socialist! Noooooooooooo! (cue threatening music)

  2. We don’t require much memorization in our society. The pledge of allegiance is perhaps one example of an authoritative American oral tradition that gets passed down. If you don’t mind I’ll share an extended quotation from a book by Bernard Weiss (one of my University of Utah professors) in which he utilized the pledge of allegiance as an analogy to understand something about early Islamic societies and their oral tradition. He makes some interesting points about the nature of the pledge of allegiance (in the second paragraph of this quote) and how it gets drilled into schoolchildren … which (I don’t think) is necessarily such a terrible thing:

    The term tawatur came to refer, in the technical usage of Muslim jurisprudence, to the recurrence of recitation of a text on a scale sufficient to give rise to the knowledge that the text recited is fully authentic. According to the theory that informed the use of this term, if one is repeatedly exposed to the recitation of a text, one will eventually reach the point where one will “discover” (yajid) within oneself a knowledge that the text is authenic. This way of thinking makes sense only within a culture that places a high premium on the memorization of texts. We must bear in mind that the memorization of the entire Qur’an and of large portions of the Sunna was an essential ingredient in the education of a Muslim jurist. In Muslim religious literature in general it is common for an author, in referring to qur’anic verse, to cite only the first few words and leave it to the learned reader to supply the rest of the verse from memory, even when the missing part plays a role in the discussion. The tawatur principle presupposd a Muslim world in which the Qur’an at the very least was repeatedly recited from one end of that world to the other by vast multitudes of reciters.
    It is difficult for a modern person to imagine such a world. On a limited scale, however, we do transmit oral texts through recitation, despite the pervasiveness of the printed text. A good example of such a text is the pledge of allegiance to the American flag, which schoolchildren recite daily in their classrooms. Most children have seldom, if ever, seen the pledge of allegiance on paper. They learn it by hearing other children or a teacher recite it. With repetition it becomes drilled into them as a fixed and unalterable text never to be forgotten. If one wishes to test a schoolchild’s knowledge of the “authentic” text, one may recite it with an error: for example, “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the nation for which it stands …” The schoolchild will readily, with conviction, object, “But you’re supposed to say: and to the republic for which it stands.” The lyrics of popular songs, well-known Bible passages, and other such famous texts have this same character of orality and transmissibility through recitation. — Bernard Weiss, The Spirit of Islam, p. 49-50

  3. Well, I guess the whole quote became one solid paragraph. I should have formatted it a little better I guess. Oh well …

  4. daylan: do you similarly object to “affirming” you will “say the whole truth and nothing but” in the courtroom setting? I see little difference between swear, pledge and affirm myself; but if it has satisfied other religous faiths…perhaps the majority got it right afterall.

  5. I don’t think it matters that the pledge came from a socialist. Why should it? “This land wss made for you and me” was wriiten by socialist and I think it is our countries best patriotic song. As to the your question of whether we should give aligenaces to anybody but God, I think the 11th article of faith answers that.

  6. I have bad memories about the Pledge. I immigrated to Utah when I was 10 years old, and had never heard it before – nor did I realize that I was expected to know it for my first day of school. I still remember the acute embarrassment I felt at being the only person in the class who didn’t know it.

    Not being able to recite the Pledge definitely got me off on the wrong foot in my new country. Although I did run home that afternoon and memorize it for the next day.

    I think the reciting the Pledge is a little creepy, but this is probably based on my negative experiences with it in elementary school.

  7. I do not think there is anything wrong with the Pledge, or with “indoctrinating” children in public schools with it, or with LDS members participating with it. In fact, I think our society could benefit from increased attention to the Pledge, as well as other patriotic rituals.

    Patriotism (among other things) is severely lacking in our society today. Some people may complain that patriotism is just blind nationalism, and if it is carried too far, Nazi America will be the result.

    I think that is ridiculous. A sense of patriotism is vital for children to adopt, if for no other reason than to heighten an appreciation for how richly blessed they are to live in this country. Without patriotism, it is hard to imagine the rising generation learning about the responsibilities of democracy, the duty of civil service, or a sense of gratitude to God for the opportunities available in this country.

    I think it is entirely appropriate for children in Canada, Britain, or elsewhere to similarly learn civic duty and love of their countries.

    I think concerns about the Pledge being written by a socialist are basically the same as being concerned about the Constitution being written by Deists, the tune for the National Anthem being a drinking song, or the Bible being written by Jews.

  8. I don’t share Jim’s desire for more patriotism. I don’t think it will result in a Nazi America, nor do I think it helps us appreciate our blessings that this country affords us per se. And it can have the effect of serving as a meaningless rationale for why this country is great. Instead of indoctrination into the wonders of America it seems that simply teaching the actual good and bad of America (and showing how by and large the good far outweighs the bad) is a better tool than memorizing pledges or songs or passing on irrational zeal.

    Reciting the pledge has always weirded me out too. I never had bad experiences with it as a child but I don’t see the need for it and I don’t really like group chanting (unless there is some priesthood authority involved). Always seemed a little creepy to me.

  9. I grew up in the 50’s and we always said the pledge of allegiance. We used to sing a lot, too, I loved America the Beautiful and My Country Tis of Thee.

    I can’t say the whole pledge without crying, I love America and it’s important to me. We are so lucky to be Americans, warts and all.

  10. I don’t understand why we should pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth at all. It does nothing but flap in the wind or adorn cars and t-shirts. Last I checked, it saved no one and made no legislation at all.

  11. #1 Ronan/#5 Brett/#7 Jim – Ok, I got carried away with the socialist thing. Scratch that.

    #2 danithew The holy books were practically the ‘only’ information available. With all the information overload in the modern world I’m glad we have computers to help out.

    #4 lyle – Yes I see a BIG difference between ‘swear (or affirm) to tell the truth’ and ‘pledge (or swear) allegiance to some entity’. Don’t you? The first is a promise not to lie and second is a loyalty statement.

    #5 Brett I’m confused. Did you mean AoF #12? “Subject to kings,…”. I don’t disagree with AoF #11 or #12. I just don’t equal being subject to is the same thing as pledging allegiance to.

    #7 Jim. Not enough patriotism??? Are we supposed to feel blessed to live in a country where are rulers lie to us and then kill 100,000 to 200,000 of our brothers and sisters? For “their own good’? We are goose-stepping closer to the edge every day.

  12. But Daylan, where would you rather live?

    I know there’s a lot wrong here, but it’s still a great country.

    I remember a conversation I had with my family a year ago. My stepson, who was in the Navy, sat quietly, as we all griped about the Iraq war and the problems with the government. I noticed and asked, “Jim (no relation to the Jim here :), what do you think?

    He was quiet for a minute, then he said, “I’ve been to a lot of countries all over the world and this is the best place I’ve lived. Even with the problems, this is the best. So I don’t complain too much.” We all shut up.

  13. When I lived in Los Angeles in the 70’s my school was bilingual (Spanish/English) out of necessity. We pledged in Spanish every day. I had moved from Canada, so not only did I need to learn the pledge, I had to learn it in Spanish. Tess I think you got off easy.

    Being an imigrant, I like the pledge. I enjoy the overt patriotism of America compared with the passive attitude of Canada. I’ll admit I don’t get the hand over my heart thing, but I like the ritual of the pledge. I hate having to do the Scout salute to the flag though.

  14. Daylan: Can you cite one reputable, non-controversial, source for your 100-200k dead figure? No, I didn’t think so.

    Also, we don’t have “rulers” in the United States; unless you live in an alternate country. We have elected leaders. “our” elected representatives made the choice to depose a tyrant; and now we are reaping what we have sowed: increased freedom and democracy in the world’s last remaining stronghold of despotism. Of what use is life if you can’t exercise your agency and enjoy freedom?

  15. Daylan said “Are we supposed to feel blessed to live in a country where are [sic] rulers lie to us and then kill 100,000 to 200,000 of our brothers and sisters? For “their own good’? [sic] We are goose-stepping closer to the edge every day.”

    I have NO clue what you are referring to here.

    There is not enough patriotism in this country. I’m not talking about blind nationalism, either. Equating the two is what I am saying is ridiculous. Blind Nationalism leads to facism. Open Nationalism leads to patriotism. Nationalism – a common sense of identity – may be a key ingredient in both, but patriotism or facism develop in diametrically opposite directions.

    Annegb has it right when she talks about being grateful to live in this country, “warts and all”. Being patriotic is recognizing this fact, accepting the faults along with the virtues, and most importantly, participating in the democratic process to improve communities and the nation.

    Teaching this deep sense of reverence to children is vital, and not easy. Reciting the Pledge is one way to accomplish this. Detachment, passivity, and apathy are rampant in our society, and I believe this contributes greatly to many of our social ills.

    I think it is ironic that some of the warts some people may use as justification to complain about the Pledge, would be greatly improved if the Pledge and other patriotic forms were better instilled throughout the nation.

    Perhaps some people who are weirded-out by the “chanting” would feel better if we set the Pledge to music? Do these people “concientiously object” to singing the National Anthem at baseball games?

    I believe the Pledge is a vital part of the way Americans express their patriotism. I think the National Anthem should be sung more often, and not just to kick off a ball game. I am glad that many people display the flag, but I wish they would do so more appropriately.

    It is not the piece of cloth that we reverence, it is the ideal that it stands for. The flag is a symbol, not an idol. Of all people, Mormons should understand symbols and this distinction.

    I recognize that allegiance to the flag can be taken too far. In point of fact, I do not support the oft-proposed flag-burning amendment. I believe that, as important as the symbol is, it should not overshadow the ideals that it stands for. Where flag burning is concerned, the ideals include freedom to express oneself politically.

    Nevertheless, by cultivating a higher sense of patriotism and appreciation for the symbols and other forms of patriotism, such protests will become much more poignant.

    Patriotism is not defined as narrowly as facism. From my point of view, a patriotic person might burn a flag, or choose to sit rather than recite the Pledge. This might be the best expression of patriotism that person can do. Facism suggests infallibility, and I doubt that such a weed can really take hold in an environment that allows open dialog, dissent, and discussion.

  16. Eddie wonders why we pledge allegiance to “a piece of cloth.”

    I pledge allegiance to the flag…

    What is a flag? A flag is indeed a piece of cloth of distinctive color and design, but what makes it a flag is that it is used as a symbol, standard, signal, or emblem.

    When we pledge allegiance to the flag we pledge allegiance to those things that the flag symbolizes. Clearly the flag as a whole stands for the Republic, but there is more.

    The flag was design by Francis Hopkinson, who had signed the Declaration of Independence. While neither Hopkinson nor congress in adopting his flag declared any explicit symbolism for the flag, Hopkinson employed colors within the Heraldic tradition. Later, when Congress established the Great Seal of the United States (adopted in 1782), which also employed red, white, and blue, and was influenced also by Hopkinson, the color symbolism was explained:

    The colors of the pales [the vertical stripes] are those used in the flag of the United State of America; White signifies purity and innocence; Red, hardiness and valor; and Blue, the color of the Chief [the broad band above the stripes] signifies vigilance, perseverance and justice.

    A star is the traditional heraldic symbol for “celestial goodness; noble person.”

    So when we pledge allegiance to the flag we are pledging our allegiance to purity and innocence, hardiness and valor, vigilance, perseverance and justice, celestial goodness and people of noble disposition.

    …and to the Republic for which it stands…

    We are not declaring allegiance to the current administration, or to a political party. We are declaring allegiance to the Republic, the type of government established in form by the Constitution and in principles by the Declaration of Independence.

    I do not think that a pledge of allegiance to these principles or the principles of government embodied in our founding documents is at odds with the Gospel.

  17. We need MORE patriotism!!??!! I find this hard to believe. We seem to have an excess in this country. And Jim, what social ills exactly would increased patriotism resolve?

    I have also never gone for the America is the greatest country out there so don’t complain. I don’t want a relatively great country, I want a great country period–esp. when the competition includes several tyrannical blood-thirsty regimes. Which brings me to Lyle, “increased freedom and democracy in the world’s last remaining stronghold of despotism.” Is the Middle East really the LAST remaining stronghold of despotism. What about SOuth Korea, or China for that matter. And how about several African countries. A lot of arguments exist for and against the Iraq war but the most you can say is that Iraq was one of a pretty long list of “stronholds of despotism.”

  18. I have long silently advocated (i.e., thought it would be a good idea but rarely said anything except to my wife) a change to the Pledge:

    “I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Rupublic which on it stands…”

  19. “So when we pledge allegiance to the flag we are pledging our allegiance to purity and innocence, hardiness and valor, vigilance, perseverance and justice, celestial goodness and people of noble disposition.”

    JMW, I think you take it a bit far. A symbol for the country maybe. A symbol for every good thing imaginable under the sun–a bit of a stretch. I mean the flag has taken on a lot of baggae since it was first created and now also includes referential symbology to the excesses of the Vietnam war, the Nixon scandal, the Clinton sex scandal. The flag is a symbol of our counrty. As such it symbolizes both the good and the bad.

  20. HL: Remember the corny sunday school story about the (wo)man picking up starfish and throwing them back into the ocean?

    Well…sure there are plenty more dictators to throw into the sea, and people to rescue from tyranny. However, that shouldn’t stop us from doing what we can when we can. Very Covey-esque…don’t you think? Focus on what you can do something about; rather than worry about those that you currently can’t?

    p.s. Well…granted there are plenty of dictatorships in the world.
    The middle east is the last “region” thoroughly plagued by such (i.e. 99% dictatorships).

  21. The only “oath of allegiance” that takes place in the UK is when a foreigner becomes a citizen. Here it is:

    I (name) swear by Almighty God (or: I (name) do solemnly and sincerely affirm) that on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors, according to law.

    I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen.

    I would have no objection to offering this oath. Some of you might find it funny that we swear allegiance to a monarch, but like the flag, the monarch is just a symbol of the state, of the United Kingdom as an ideal. No problems there. Pledge away, my American friends!

  22. Lyle: I agree that the fact that there many tyrants out there is not, in and of itself, an argument against the Iraq war. However, I did think it worth my time to point out that there are many places in the world with a lot of pretty bad tyrants.

  23. HL,

    I can understand how some might choose to take a descriptivist view of the flag symbolism, like the view you describe, but I do not think that my prescriptivist view goes “a bit far.”

    “Purity and innocence, hardiness and valor, vigilance, perseverance and justice” are not my words, but the words used in establishing the great seal by the founders themselves. When the founders established national symbols like the flag and the great seal, they were meant to represent the principles and ideals that country should aim for and the principles that should underlie our government actions.

    The mistakes of Vietnam, Nixon, Clinton, etc. represent a betrayal of those principles and ideals. and are contrary to the spirit of the flag, as it was established by the founders.

    You may keep your descriptivist, “living-constitution” analog of the flag’s symbolism. I’ll stick with the hope of striving for an ideal, as prescribed by the founders.

  24. HL:

    I guess I am thinking primarily of crime, although generally it would be better to say all of the ills that result from a breakdown of community.

    My impression is that some people go to great lengths to avoid civic duties such as jury duty or paying taxes. Don’t get me wrong – I think taxes are too high, too. But, if your town is like mine, city council meetings are rarely attended. People are not involved. National politics takes center stage because of the business realities of media.

    A patriotic person is one who is involved in local politics, issues, and community development. An apathetic person is one who merely goes through the day-to-day routine, thinking only of “number 1”, ignoring his/her neighbors and oblivious to the ongoing democratic process.

    Insofar as this description of apathy applies to so many, many people, I feel confident in saying we need more patriotism.

  25. Ronan: Do they make allowances for folks that want to “affirm” rather than “swear”?

    OTLN: I really like your addition of the “constitution.” As a point of reference, let’s look at the military oaths.

    “I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

    “I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.” (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
    ————————————
    If the military is willing to support and defend the constitution; shouldn’t everyone be willing to (in a non-martial role that is)?

  26. Jim: The ills you reference and their solution seems to come more from cvic mindedness, which I think is different than patriotism. I think there are many patriotic people who are not civic minded in the least. I find patriotism to be “nice” and civic duty to be “effective.” In so far as you equate patriotism with civic mindedness I agree with you.

    JMW: Alas, if all original creators of symbols could control their meaning. However, that in fact defies the symbol. It will take on the meaning for which culture assigns it (thus the debates over the swastica: a symbol at one time for good and now for great evil. Can it be reclaimed for the good? I doubt it, but the fact remains it would need to be reclaimed, regardless what the orginal users of the swastice intended by the symbol). And I’m all for idealism. I too wish for the ideal of a pure, valorous, glorious America. However, we simply have fallen short of that ideal. Pretending the flag doesn’t symbolioze our short comings along with our strengths is not idealism.

  27. #13 annegb Maybe anartica where there is no government 8-). I agree that America is still the ‘best’ place to live, but it has fallen a long way from it’s initial conditions and is quickly slipping into third world status.

    #15 Lyle Can you name “one reputable, non-controversial, source” for the actual number of deaths inflected on our brothers and sisters? I assume you’ll call every source I bring up either non-reputable or controversial. The fact is that we were intentionally misled (‘fit the fact to the polity’) to by our rulers and many people died. Wasn’t it Washington that warned us not to become entangled with the politics of other nations?

    #15 Lyle. Washington was a leader. He led his men in war, likewise Mormon was a leader. Our current and past administrators are rulers.

    #16 Jim. I guess it’s how you define “Nationalism”. Our tribe is good. Their tribe is bad (and causing all our problems), so if we get rid of enough of their tribe all will be ok? “If you’re not with us you are against us” – that type of nationalism?

    #23 Lyle. How about taking the beam out of our national eye, before we take the speck out of other nations? How about sticking to the rule of law, the Constitution (which LIMITS the federal power)? Where do our rulers derive the right to an war of aggresion?

  28. Unless I missed it nobody was addressed my main, but well hidden, point:

    Should we give our allegiance to anybody (or anything) other than God?

  29. Oh, yeah, the point.

    Basically, yes.

    We give our allegiance, by other words, to our spouses and children.

    We implicitly give a certain allegiance to our employers.

    I see nothing wrong with pledging allegiance to other persons or organizations, provided that they are either not conflicting with our commitment to God, or subordinate thereto.

    It’s when any other allegiance edges out, replaces, or trumps our devotion to God that we have a problem… and such allegiances are usually entered into without a formal oath.

  30. Does it matter that the pledge was instantiated and propagated by a socialist?

    No. Not really. Not to me. “Socialists” are still Americans. And socialists who aren’t Americans are not bad people simply by virtue of being a socialist. Sheesh- what is this, the 1950s?

    What is the difference between “swear” (3 Nephi 12:33-36) and “pledge”?

    I think there is a big difference between the two. Jesus told us not to swear by anything, but just to promise. A pledge is a promise. It is a “yes, yes, no, no” communication. We don’t “swear” our allegiance by anything on the earth or under the heavens, rather we promise to be faithful to the republic (NOT nation) represented by the flag. To me that is not swearing in the manner proscribed by Jesus Christ.

    Should we give our allegiance to anybody (or anything) other than God?

    Certainly. We should never give anything MORE allegiance than we give God, but saying the pledge does not require us to do this. In fact, in its current embodiment whether that be right or wrong in light of the first amendment, the pledge acknowledges that this republic is subservient to the greater power of God. So how is saying the pledge mutually exclusive to giving our allegiance to God?

    Do we really mean (or even know) what we say when reciting the pledge?

    I do. I weigh the words carefully.

    Are we sinners in the sight of God for teaching our children to pledge?

    No way. Is there any scriptural basis for this question? If we are sinners for doing this, than so are my Church leaders who led me many times in the pledge of allegiance while I was growing up.

    Do we brush these thoughts away because, “Gosh if the GA’s do it, it must certainly be ok?”

    Brush these thoughts away? I’ve never even had these thoughts. I have thought before about the possible inappropriateness of the words “under God” in the pledge, but never about all of these nuances. Not until today.

    Did the Jehovah’s Witnesses get this one right?

    From whose perspective? From theirs? Yes. From mine? No. For the reasons listed above.

    There. This is a narrow answer to all of your questions, mostly without adding anything else, though I do have much more to say on the matter.

  31. Daylan: I think it has something to do with the concept of freedom for everyone; not just white americans. But hey, if its hypocracy to support freedom for our brothers & sisters living in tyranny and squallor, I’ll take your word on it. I wouldn’t want to risk mistaking freedom for a mote or a beam.

    Yeah yeah…Bush lied. Well, so did Newsweek. Big deal. At least one of them _also_ told the truth. And at least one of them did something positive to advance the cause of liberty. That is, unless you don’t want the Gospel preached all over the world someday. That will require democratic governments that allow civil liberties; something most middle east tyrants don’t allow.

    Your entitled to your definition of ruler; but it really seems misplaced. The only ruler I have is God the Father. As a soldier, I would call Washington & Mormon either General and/or Prophet, respectively. Leaders don’t physically have to be in front; only their ideas and vision.

    So, to answer your hidden question: Of course. As Screwtape pointed out, and OTLN emphasized above, it is when you put something in front of your allegiance to God that there is a problem. Now, I imagine you are suggesting that saying the pledge of allegiance to the flag, et al. does exactly that. Fair enough. I think ’tis possible. Elder Oaks had a nice ensign article on this a few years back.

    Dallin H. Oaks, “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall,” Ensign, Oct. 1994, 11 http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm

    “Love of country is surely a strength, but carried to excess it can become the cause of spiritual downfall. There are some citizens whose patriotism is so intense and so all-consuming that it seems to override every other responsibility, including family and Church. I caution those patriots who are participating in or provisioning private armies and making private preparations for armed conflict. Their excessive zeal for one aspect of patriotism is causing them to risk spiritual downfall as they withdraw from the society of the Church and from the governance of those civil authorities to whom our twelfth article of faith makes all of us subject.”

  32. I love this country, and I feel strongly about the principles upon which it was founded. I’m happy to leave the pledging of allegiance to others, though. Maybe it reminds me of the Great Loyalty Oath Crusade in Catch-22. Or perhaps it’s the Great Pledge of Allegiance Crusade that the Republican party launched a few election cycles (or should that be “cynicals”–yeah, I know it doesn’t fit) ago. Whatever the reason, I’ll let others stand with hands on hearts and recite the words (admitting that some are surely sincere and others likely hypocritical and others probably completely thoughtless), and I’ll try to show my allegiance by my actions.

  33. Ideology often doesn’t matter in regards to one’s works. I’m a proud capitalist tool. Steven J. Gould was a socialist, and I think his natural history books are marvelous.

  34. I have a serious problem with the pledge of allegiance. Specifically, if there is anything that we should pledge our allegiance or loyalty to, it is the US Constitution. It’s our mutual respect for the Constitution and the framework that it represents that makes me and those who disagree with me over political issues loyal to the same government whether it sides with me or with them. To pledge allegiance to the flag or to the country is shear folly. To pledge allegiance to the government is downright dangerous.

  35. My two cents’ worth. We pledge allegance to the flag AND to the Republic “for which it stands.” The Pledge itself recognizes and acknowledges that the flag is a symbol of the country.

    By the way, it is not just the military who take an oath to the Constitution. Every federal employee does, too (including your mail carriers). Technically, federal employees are appointed by the President–but delegated many, many levels. Have I taken an oath to a piece of paper? No, but to the ideals it represents.

    On a bit of a threadjack in response to Daylan. Do you know anybody who has been over in Iraq or Afghanistan? A member of our branch who speaks Arabic came home from Iraq last week–the overwhelming number of Iraqis he dealt with on a daily basis support what we are doing over there. The vast majority of men and women who are over there believe they are doing good, and not because they are puppets who are told they are. They believe they are doing good because they see the results of their hard work, and they see the support from the people. And for those who want the US out of Iraq yesterday, remember that World War II ended over 50 years ago, and there are still huge US military bases in Germany.

  36. AT, love your guts, especially now that your genius for computers has expanded my life (and I have actually: washed two loads of clothes, cleaned my stove, did dishes, made beds, and networked with several friends, had lunch with my husband in all this blogging, something Freudian in that comment), but I disagree with your last two sentences, not totally, but sort of.

    I don’t think it’s folly to pledge allegiance to our country, I think it’s cool and desirable. Now the government, another story. I have from personal experience seen the bad side of our government. There are Marines and senators who see hear my name and get mad. I earned it.

    But one of the great things about COUNTRY, ours, for sure, is my freedom to–excuse the obscenity–bitch about the government. To have this blog and argue about right and wrong. To feel that I am just as good as the president or the senators who I have insulted and griped about, and they have the freedom to not like me. I love that.

    Alamojag, right on.

  37. People need to belong to groups. It is in our nature. One group isn’t necessarily better than another, but it is important to have that team spirit. My children belong to our family. We can’t be the best family it the world, but we can love each other, help each other, be what a family should be to each other. So then my kids won’t go join a gang since that’s what psychologists say is the reason gangs are appealing.
    Patriotism is important no matter what country to belong to. Teamwork is a positive attribute for a child to learn no matter what baseball team they joined. Loyalty to your team is a trait that we have traditionally honored.
    Loyalty, or duty, are slipping in popularity. Loyalty to your spouse? Not if it means you don’t get to do what you want. Get a divorce. Family, city, country….we seem to want to become a world of individuals making our own way. No duty or responsibility to anyone….so how can we expect anyone to want to help us if there is no duty or loyalty felt towards us.
    Duty and loyalty to the whole world? Can’t ever really happen. We are divided into groups. We can’t help dividing ourselves. And we can feel more loyalty to a smaller group. People who we have something in common. Our school community. Or the people who live in the same country as us.
    Patriotism can be about belonging, about taking responsibility, about caring about others, it can be a good thing.
    I am happy my daughter gets to recite the pledge at school.

  38. Me, too, JKS, everything you said. (as usual)

    I can never get through the pledge of allegiance without crying.

  39. Thank you, annegb. Every year I feel like I’ve learned and grown from experience and I start to feel wise. But then it seems that my experience is not universal so what I’ve learned from life either people around me haven’t learned yet, or they just didn’t see things from that perspective. So then I start to think, am I the only one who thought that was important?
    Thanks for that little bit of validation. Someone is on the same wavelength as me and gets what I’m trying to say!!! That is always really nice to hear.

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