By Soyde River
President Packer years ago, gave one of the most significant talks I ever read, about being spiritually self-reliant. Yet we live in a culture in which we are immersing ourselves in self-pity and becoming ever more emotionally dependent on therapy, on blaming others for our troubles, on contemplating our navel (and our vicissitudes), to the point where we are so self absorbed that we are constantly depressed.
Some years back a mission president in the US told me that almost a quarter of his missionaries were on Prozac. I heard another mission president say that in his mission, a desperately poor third world mission, virtually none of his missionaries were depressed. Leaving aside the fact that they may have selected who they sent to each mission, it was his opinion that the reason his missionaries did not suffer from depression is that they experienced every day how people coped who had REAL problems (whether they would have enough to eat, to live on, a job, etc.)
The pioneer generation buried their dead along the trail, and in spite of their pain and sorrow, managed to persevere and put that behind them. Not to the point that the pain disappeared (some of it never did–-nor am I minimizing that pain), but that life had to go on.
Emerson worried that
“the sinew and heart of man seem to be drawn out, and we are become timorous, despondent whimperers. We are afraid of truth, afraid of fortune, afraid of death, and afraid of each other….We are parlour soldiers, we shun the battle of fate, where strength is born…. Discontent is the want of self-reliance, it is infirmity of will…. The civilized man has built a coach, but has lost the use of his feet. He is supported on crutches, but lacks so much support of muscle.” (Self Reliance)
Some tragedy happens in the US and the counselors and psychologists descend as spiritual ambulance chasers. But the reality is that throughout most of mankind’s existence, death, disease and separation were a fact of every day life. Those who suffered such losses mourned, but most did not let the mourning distract them from the purpose of life, or drive them into despair.
Above all, those of us who have a testimony of the Gospel, of all people, should be able to cope with the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”. John Stuart Mill suffered from depression, and eventually worked his way out of it, offering the following insight: “The only chance is to treat not happiness, but some end external to it, as the purpose of life.”
Elder Neal A. Maxwell said:
The real accomplishment is to drink from the “bitter cup” without becoming bitter. Rather than simply passing through trials, we must allow trials to pass through us in ways that sanctify us. We know we are sanctified by the trial when our empathy for others is enriched and everlasting. The suffering loses its purpose when all we do is complain.”
Or wallow in self pity. As Shakespeare’s wrote in Julius Caesar, “The fault lies not in our stars, dear Brutus, but in ourselves, that we are underlings.”
(By the way, Emerson would not have liked my use of quotations–he felt it was a crutch!)
I was told that after Sister Hinckley’s graveside ceremony, President Hinckley left with the crowd. But later that day, he returned with one of his sons. After sitting silently in meditation for some time, he stood up and said: “Well, it’s time to go to work.”
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Soyde, great post. I couldn’t agree more. Ours is the BMW generation — we love to Boast, Whine and Moan. (Others use another B besides Boast). I love the President Hinckley story — that’s the way we should all be. It’s worth noting that the missionaries in Brazil — surrounded by desperate poverty all day long and without a cent in their pockets even to take a bus — were the happiest people I have ever known. Our missionaries in Miami — with their cars and cell phones — are constantly running the BMW (but I still love them!!!!).
Solving Emotional Problems in the Lord’s Own Way
-Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, May 1978
Is this the talk by President Packer to which you refer?
Occasionally depression can be a funny topic. I like how Douglas Adams deals with it through his character, Marvin the paranoid android. Marvin is the first of the Genuine People Personality (GPP) robots from the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation … consequently he is very depressed. Ask him to do any task and he grumbles. Talk to him and he’ll only complain. Here are some of his choice lines:
“I won’t enjoy it.”
“I think you ought to know I’m feeling very depressed.”
“Life. Don’t talk to me about life.”
“Life, loath it or ignore it. You can’t like it.”
“It gives me a headache just trying to think down to your level.”
“Wearily on I go, pain and misery my only companions. And vast intelligence of course. And infinite sorrow. I despise you all.”
“Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you down to the bridge. Call that job satisfaction?! ‘Cause I don’t!”
The Encyclopedia Galactica defines a robot as a mechanical apparatus designed to do the work of a man. The marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation defines a robot as “Your Plastic Pal Who’s Fun to Be With.” The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy defines the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as “a bunch of mindless jerks who’ll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes …”
Except for the tenuous “depression” connection, that was kind of non sequitur. Still got Hitchhikers on the mind, Danithew?
I think you need to be careful here. There is a difference between self-pity and wallowing and depression. I have experienced depression, and I have experienced self-pity. The latter may accompany the former, but depression distinguishes itself through apathy and a peculiar inability to feel motivation. Its physical manifestations (lack of energy, sleeplessness/too much sleep, diminished appetite) are more debilitating than its emotional manifestations. I would wager that missionaries in “third world” countries are less depressed because they are more physically active. Depression is a physical condition. It is too simple to say that these missionaries are less depressed because they see people with “real problems.”
Refiner’s Fire? Drive the dross out? I don’t think we have seen the tip of the iceberg yet.
I highly recommend Esther Rasband’s “The Myth of Self Esteem.” Self esteem is considered necessary in our society and yet nowhere in the scriptures are we told that love of self is important. (The 2 greatest commandments are 1. Love God 2. Love neighbor as thyself NOT 1. Love God, 2. Love Self, 3. Love Neighbor–there are 2 commandments, not three)
In many ways self focus makes us miserable.
Rasband suggests that happiness and peace is felt when we give our whole hearts to God.
I believe this strongly.
As for depression, I’m on my way out the door and I’ll save that post until later.
I love this post! Thanks for putting it up. I’m surprised no one has mentioned Dostoevsky’s “The Grand Inquisitor”, who made the argument that men are desperate to give up their freedom to anyone who will give them “bread” and reassurance. I think there is a lot of truth to that. How often do we want our leaders to just tell us what to do? If you read the other blogs on the bloggernacle, they are filled with posts of people feeling insecure about their choices to have children, work, or whatever.
We need to learn how to take the principles of the gospel and apply them to our own lives through personal revelation. It’s hard to do, but it’s better than giving up our agencies to other people (satan’s plan).
JMX, yeah, I definitely have HHGTTG on the brain. And maybe that was too much of a threadjack, though the character Marvin’s main characteristic is “wallowing in self-pity” — which the post is criticizing. That was where I drew the connection.
It seems completely absurd to me that 25% of the missionaries in a given area would be on Prozac. My response to our overly psychoanalyzed and medicated society is usually to turn to some kind of humor. There are people out there who truly need help and have serious conditions — they can’t just be told to be strong or to get tough. At the same time a lot of people seem to jump into therapy or seek a prescription whenever they have some kind of problem, when really they probably just need to kick themselves in the butt or allow time and new experiences to heal them.
As I’ve been thinking about this, the lyrics to the Eagles song “Get Over It” also come to mind.
I love the sentiment taught by Jesus in several places (Mt 10:39; 16:25. To find your life you must first lose it. The idea, as I see it, is that to overcome ones problems one must be “other centered.” That is, focused on charity. When you focus on your problems, the consequence is, as often as not, to merely magnify them.
None of this is to say one simply ignores ones problems. Especially not if chemical or mential imbalances are present. Further I think one can appear to be “other centered” when one is really still “self centered.” We’ve all met people like that who merely do acts of service to appear great, to “keep up with the Jones,” or out of some odd sense of duty but not really because of others. I think all those are counterfeits of true charity and are still focused on the self and pleasing the self. One also, of course, keep in mind the “don’t run faster than you have strength” admonition of the scriptures.
Danithew,
I agree with you for the most part, but I worry about the judgmental attitude I’m sensing from people about this issue. This general attitude, I think, prevents some people who genuinely need help from getting it. I grew up in Utah and believed that things like depression, etc., were “made up” even though I exhibited signs of depression from a very young age. I could not see my own problems because of the environment I had grown up in; I did not have a context for them, I guess you could say.
The person I am most heartsick for is my mother, whom I deeply suspect of being depressed, and who I know will never seek help. I think there is such a stigma of weakness and lack of discipline attached to mental health problems, she never would allow herself to consider that she is not well.
I agree with Minerva, people shouldn’t be stigmatized when they need help. But isn’t there a subset of people who have the mental and emotional capacity to decide for themselves how to live their lives, but they just don’t have the courage or the gumption to strike out on their own? I think I fall into this category – sometimes I’d much rather be told what to do instead of figure things out for myself. What’s more, I get frustrated when people tell me what to do if I don’t agree with it. Can’t win.
Ah, depression…my old friend.
I will agree that depression is a form of self-absortion, but the problem is that people in a state of depression generally can’t see for themselves how to get out of it. I suffered from depression in my later teen years due to some childhood trauma, and came through it with the help of a good counselor.
Because of having gone through counseling, I learned how to change my attitude and behaviors, my perspective, and to overcome depression from its onset in the future. I have been able to become a generally happy person and have successfully avoided any serious (more than a few weeks of) depression since that time.
I have never taken any form of anti-depressants, and while I feel that they have their place for people who have hormonal imbalances, I think many people would actually benefit from trying counseling. It can help identify what is really behind the depression. For example, during a period in my life I was having really extreme PMS weeks, this coincided with a lot of emotional trauma. I could stuff the emotions away most of the time, but on the week when my hormones were out of balance, I was a mess. I didn’t need medication, I needed to deal with my stuffed emotions in a regular healthy way so that I didn’t build up to a melting point when I was more vulnerable physically. Once I dealt with the underlying emotional stress, my PMS went back to the usual (mild fruit-loopism).
Sometimes I am so frustrated by what I like to call the “Super Mormon†attitude. This attitude is one that if you have the gospel, you don’t need counseling, you don’t need drugs, you just need to have more faith! If counseling were never needed, the church would not have created LDS Family Services. So many people spend miserable years of their lives struggling with marital problems, depression, and addictions when they could spend a few months with a counselor dedicated to finding out their problems and helping them deal with it head on. I know that at LDS Family Services their goal is to try and help people in 12 sessions or less.
I must say though, that the key is to find a good counselor who you feel is really helping, and not someone who wants to set you up as a regular patient into the endless future.
In my opinion, its all about perspective, and having the right perspective in life. President Hinkley is a wonderful example of having the right perspective. Some people just don’t know how to change it their own. By the way, I highly recommend the book, “Bonds That Make Us Free†by C. Terry Warner.
I will agree though, that too many people do use depression as a crutch and an excuse not to change themselves, I just wanted to point out that counseling can be an effective solution and that too many people dismiss it as quackery.
Just to add to Audrey’s comments, many people with severe depression go overboard in charity. I can think of one friend who took off to the third world and had a tremendously difficult time dealing with the inequities between America and the third world. To such an extent that (in my opinion) it likely became very unhealthy. I’ve met other depressed people who get wrapped up in charity or other service programs to an unhealthy degree as well. Of course the obvious response is, what is unhealthy, and given the real inequities, ought we all not be acting like this? I think there’s some truth to this, but I also think that some balance in peoples life is in order.
I agree that people need help and often can get it easily. They just don’t simply because of social stigma. At the same time though I fully admit a strong distrust of most counselors, therapists, and psychologists. Even with drugs, their success rate isn’t good.
I wrote to Elder Packer once because I was trying to find a talk he gave where he said something like, “most of the work in the church is done by people who don’t feel good or are tired…” Basically, he was saying, “get a life.” I’ve tried and tried to find that one, but I haven’t been able to. His office sent me a copy of the talk listed above. Maybe I need to study it more.
Does anybody remember Elaine Jack’s “Get a Life” talk in general conference? I thought it was tremendously courageous, and also a put down at the same time (think MPD).
If I’m depressed, I’m justified, but if you keep whining, you’re going to get on my nerves and I’ll start avoiding you. I like that idea, it’s okay to swish your feet in the pity pot, just don’t take a bath in it.
Because sometimes life does get me down, for real. And sometimes I’m just milking it. My daughter has struggled with depression and I never dismiss it, because of my son’s suicide. And without Prozac, I would have never made it through those first years.
JKS, those two books are good ones. I have both of them. Another is Feeling Good. We can turn our thoughts around. Good thought provoking topic. I hope we can keep it kind.
oops, JKS and Audrey, those are good books.
Pharmacalogical therapeutics for depression are emergent, but the sense that the current generation is weaker, less robust, more decadent, less manly than earlier generations is not. During the Renaissance, an influential treatise on the bodily “humors” was widely circulated, reflecting precisely the same kind of concerns about their current generation that you express here, except that their “melancholic” subsituted for our “depressed.”
Perhaps the Church has been creating an atmosphere that encourages “me-centeredness” that contributes to rough emotional times. Most of the talks and sermons I hear, from sacrament meeting to General Conference, have as their focus an activity that should be done. Missionary work, temple attendance, scripture study, calling magnification, meaningful prayer, home and visiting teaching, and so on. All of these are “things I must do”. We think all the time about “things I am doing.” The corollary (express or implied) is that “if I do everything, I will be blessed with the Spirit and happiness.”
We get too focused on all the good things we should be doing. We start expecting a quid pro quo of good feelings to go with all our good things. When we start to feeling badly, then it must be because we aren’t doing all the good things we should be doing. So we try to do more good things. The guilt of not doing all the things we’re supposed to be doing intensifies those negative emotions.
I propose that the Church take a yearlong Sabbatical from preaching anything that might go on a “to do” list. Instead, every speaker should preach nothing but the love of Christ and redemption by grace.
Then we could focus on Christ, rather than on our lists of accomplishments. Then, when we feel badly, rather than beating ourselves up for not doing enough good, we could reach for Christ and ask for his love and grace. Maybe we would start to realize that our good works aren’t all that impressive anyway, so there’s no reason to stress out and get depressed about them.
Totally with you on that, Janey.
I think women suffer more from the “to-do’s” than men.
Thanks annegb. You know what was a total eye-opener for me? I had a depressive episode, and was sobbing my guts out in my bishop’s office about what a useless scum I was because I couldn’t do any of the Church’s assignments anymore (not prayer, not scriptures, not anything), and the bishop said not to worry about doing any of it. So I don’t even try anymore. I just do stuff when I feel like doing it. I’m not nearly as self-absorbed as I used to be when I was concentrating on doing everything right. And I’m hoping a lot more that Christ can really save me from all my sins of omission. I believe he can. It’s less stress to believe he will save me anyway than it is to try and do everything.
Of course, I’m hardly one of the “rocks” of the ward anymore!! (A priesthood leader described me that way once.)
🙂 Been there. Sounds like you have a wise bishop. I think I’m going to study your post a bit and try to implement it. Although as I age, I get less and less intense. Oh, I just cracked myself up, imagining people saying, “if that’s less intense, I’d have hated to know her when.”
Today is my last day at this subbing job. Sitting around is actually getting boring to me, something I never thought I’d say. Boy, am I getting to know from blogs.
AudreyStone,
Good point about the church’s position on counseling. Obviously, they have made efforts to make counseling available through LDS social services. Counseling from an LDS perspective would be what I would want.
And I think that counselors are really more like expert teachers…Just as my son’s speech therapist is an expert in her field and has experience dealing with children with similar difficulties. Parents, church leaders, friends can be of great support, but can we really expect them to be an expert in everything? I am sure not all counselors are the same quality, but a good one should be extremely helpful in dealing with many issues that come up in life. As I’ve gotten older, I have had more friends have extremely positive experiences with counseling so I am now very aware of its great potential to help many people.
Janey,
The book I mentioned, “The Myth of Self Esteem” mentions the checklist of things to do as being the wrong approach to salvation. What really matters is our hearts. Perhaps we need to concentrate a little more on the grace part in the grace vs. works. Letting the atonement work on us, on our hearts. Does God care if we read 30 minutes of scriptures every day of our lives or not? No. He cares if we read the scriptures and let his words change us. He cares if we read the scriptures and then became a better servant to his will. No matter how many talents we are given, he wants us to grow and make good use of our time in mortality. The 5 talent people may scare us with all of their accomplishments, but giving up and burying our one talent is the wrong thing to do. I’ve got two talents and I am going to turn them into 4!!!
Other thoughts….
I think that Depression, being a real medical condition, does not always have one treatment. As I look over my young family’s medical problems over the years, most medical treatment decisions are not cut and dried. Chemotherapy for my husband’s cancer gave him a 75% chance of survival for his stage & disease. Why does it work for some and not for others? Sometimes there are options. Do this (with its accompanying pros and cons) or that (with its pros and cons). Patient choice. Sometimes what works now and is the best choice now, isn’t necessarily what will be the best treatment a couple years down the road as you continue to try and manage your disease.
For me, one of the purposes in life is to improvement oneself. If you have a problem, you fix it, or if it is unfixable, you find the best way to deal with it. I’m always trying to be a better person, better mother, better wife, better church member. In fact, just last New Years when a lesson discussed Resolutions, I thought to myself, who doesn’t try every day to be better at each of those things every day? But simply trying to do better can be frustrating. And sometimes we need to take a step back to evaluate, or go to an expert with experience to show us how to best deal with a certain problem.
I think that someone struggling with depression should examine the options. Try lifestyle changes. If it works, great. Try medication. If it works, great. Try counseling. If it works, great.
What bothers me is that if something is not working you should continue to search for what would work.
I know the statistic about women in Utah having the highest prozac use has been used many times (even by me, in the past) to say what’s wrong with this picture. Why aren’t we the happiest people on earth?
But is there necessarily anything wrong with that picture? Maybe the higher birthrate simply puts more women in hormonal imbalances of PPD. Or maybe going on medication for depression could actually be a good thing? I’m not saying medication is necessarily perfect, but other pain or diseases are medicated with medication options that only help symptoms.
Perhaps depression medication should be considered a blessing, just as anesthesia (also imperfect but useful) and antibiotics (also imperfect but useful) are considered wonderful blessings of the last century. How horrible that billions of people had to suffer in the years before their availability.
Perhaps through prayer and research and trial and error we can find the best way to handle all of our problems in our life, including health and emotional/mental health.
Janey-
I like your idea. The gospel teaches that we are saved by grace after all we can do. But when it comes to the subject of talks at church here is my current tally:
All We Can Do: 612,346
Grace: Zero
I would just love for the topic given the speakers to be grace…..just once, just for kicks.
Jonathan, that talk has many of the same principles, but it is not the talk I read. The one I read, I believe was called: “On Spiritual Self-Reliance”. I believe President Packer gave it in the early 70’s, but I do not have a copy.
I do remember one line from it which went something like: “Sometimes a young couple might agonize over whether they should buy Spanish Colonial furniture, or French Provincial. Has it occurred to them that perhaps the Lord doesn’t really care?” (That is a paraphrase).
But the point he was making was similar.
In line with Audrey’s comments, the article from President Packer linked to above says:
I read Pres. Packer’s talk. I think it emphasizes that people shouldn’t endlessly go to the bishop to solve all their little problems. And if they do go to the bishop, they should follow the counsel given before coming back and complaining again.
I am sure LDS family services cannot support all members who need services. It is there like the rest of the welfare program, according to the talk. The problems may need that kind of attention but only after every personal, and family, and every local resource has been exhausted That seems to indicate that your local resources, like counseling from other sources, can be used.
If we are not careful, we can lose the power of individual revelation. What the Lord said to Oliver Cowdery has meaning for all of us.
“Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
“But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
“But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong.†(D&C 9:7–9.)
Spiritual independence and self-reliance is a sustaining power in the Church. If we rob the members of that, how can they get revelation for themselves? How will they know there is a prophet of God? How can they get answers to prayers? How can they know for sure for themselves?
It is not an unfeeling bishop who requires those coming to him for counsel to exhaust every personal and family resource before helping them.
Bishops, be careful with your “emotional order forms.†Do not pass them out without having analyzed carefully the individual resources.
Teach our members to follow proper channels in solving problems.
And there I think is the real message. Personal revelation. I have a problem, pray, I study it out in my mind, make a decision. Pray about it. Sometimes I get an answer. I do what feels right. Sometimes, it is like the furniture. Which path I take is irrelevant to God’s plan, so I rely on just my mortal mind to make my best guess.
Depression, is just such a problem to be dealt with in this matter. There is no one size fits all answer. So you pray, study and make a plan.
Many times the Lord helps you learn things you need to know a little at a time. A new insight here, a new idea there, and you feel the spirit telling you how to be a better mother, better wife, better servant, not in a crash course, but in daily living a little lesson at a time.
Backing off from the tangent on depression, the danger of self focus is a lesson I relearn, again and again in my life. Is it such a hard lesson to learn? Yes, because I”m human and there are new ways it becomes important as I grow or my circumstances change.
Great comment JKS.
1. Therapy is a wonderful way to become self-reliant. Assuming one is not naturally self-reliant (and very, very few are), therapy can equip one with the tools necessary to become so. I am of the opinion that we could use more therapy than less.
2. The 3rd World mission thing is just silly. You say “leaving aside the fact that they may have selected who they sent to each mission” — how on earth can you leave that aside? Of course they select that. It is well-known that missionaries with emotional and other problems were disqualified from serving overseas. Even if that weren’t true, if one became depressed in a poor country, there aren’t that many ways to get medication or therapy as a missionary (as there would be in the US).
3. Further, the idea that exposure to the problems associated with poverty is a cure for depression certainly doesn’t square with my own experience. I have seen a great deal of poverty, and there is nothing more depressing.
4. Yes, the pioneers and others experienced a great deal of adversity; two quibbles, though: First, who is to say that their adversity was harder than the kind we experience today? Theirs certainly seems harder to us, but that doesn’t make it necessarily so; thus, maybe we have more reason to be depressed than they did. Second, even if their hardships were greater than ours, advances in medicine and psychology have yielded a harvest of tools that make life more bearable for a great many — why not avail ourselves of them?
Davis…Well, of course they can select some who they KNOW have emotional troubles. But it is a well known fact that some emotional problems do not surface until ages 18-21, and that emotional problems tend to be exacerbated by conditions of stress–and a mission does provide conditions of stress.
All I can say is that the experience of that mission president was that virtually none of his missionaries were depressed, or required medication to control emotional problems.
“Above all, those of us who have a testimony of the Gospel, of all people, should be able to cope with the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”.”
I have to tell you that this sentence and this post and many of the comments here show why people who struggle with depression and other kinds of mental illness find little or no help in Mormonism, or should I say Mormon culture. The thought that the level of your testimony is directly or indirectly connected to how you cope with the difficulties and challenges of life is dangerous. Plus, it’s insulting to people who fight depression or other debilitating mental illnesses. Don’t we covenant to mourn with those who mourn, not to question why their testimony isn’t sufficient to help them deal with things, nor to debate whether they truly have a chemical imbalance or just feel sorry for themselves and are self-absorbed?
Unless the above-mentioned mission president was a mental health professional I don’t find him qualified to judge whether his missionaries were actually depressed, did or did not need medication, or had or didn’t have emotional problems.
It’s great that President Hinckley can get up off his dead wife’s grave and say, “Let’s go to work,” but for many if not most of us it isn’t so easy. Should we be held to that level of expectation? Should people assume we have weak testimonies or are self-obsessed? Some of us might just be human, and some of us might just be sick.
SeptimusH-
I hope you will re-read some of the earlier comments on this thread (especially Audrey #13 & 14 and JKS #23, and Jonathan MW’s quote from Elder Packer in #26) to see that there is genuine concern that people who are depressed get the proper treatment, including drugs or counseling, when that is necessary.
It seems to me that Soyde was trying to encourage us to avoid needless self-pity, which is perhaps unduly encouraged by the contemporary emphasis on self-fulfillment, which can lead us to think that if we are not happy all the time we need to have someone “fix” us as soon as possible.
This post seems aimed not at those with deep depression or other mental illness, but at the average person who needs encouragement to tackle his problems personally first, using the effective methods mentioned in so many of the comments above, rather than automatically and/or endlessly going to the Bishop over little things.
I had some pretty harsh comments, but like RoAnn indicated, it wasn’t for people who truly are struggling with chemical imbalances or serious depression. The criticisms here are aimed at those who go into therapy for mild anxieties, an overzealous case of insecurity or due to normal problems and stresses in life. Ach, I stubbed my toe and haven’t had sex for two weeks … I’m off to see my therapist.
I grew up in the midst of poverty. I would ride horseback over to tenant farmers’ homes and share a meal with them. Adobe walls, dirt floors, wooden benches, no tablecloth, water to drink, and solid no-frills food. They shared what they had with me. Wife and mother had a grey dress which had once been black, but now after constant washings had turned grey. The newer black dress was kept for Sundays. Children playing in the dust. The men wore rope soled shoes, as did I. If I stayed into the evening, the oil lamp would come out, and we would slap at the moths and bugs which gathered round. In harvest time, we worked from sunup to sundown.
They laughed and teased and smiled. Occasionally, they mourned and cried. There was sunshine and rain, comedy and tragedy, sickness and health, light and dark, hope and …….it’s a funny thing, you know, but I never sensed despair. Oh, I did not know all about their life, but I do not recall seeing, or sensing angst.
Did they want a better life? Of course they did.
But I never sensed despair.
Soyde, my mission experience is at odds with that of the mission president you know. And my experiences with poverty are at odds with yours. Given that neither of us has anything more than the scantest of anecdotal evidence, I think that it is unjustified to draw hard conclusions (i.e. that missionaries exposed to poverty aren’t depressed).
It seems to me that one component of being truly spiritually self-reliant would be a decreased need to decry others’ weakness and publicly judge their means of coping with their pain, and less glee in proclaiming one’s own superior righteousness and strength.
That’s fair enough, Davis. I would not claim to know everything, and undoubtedly my anecdotal evidence is not necessarily compelling. After all, I did start this thread with a question, although it was obvious where my sympathies lay.
But I am left with a question: Why is it, when we have raised the life expectancy from 50 years to over 75 years in a century, when we have banished most infectious diseases which had brought us the devastating loss of children, when we can travel to see our loved ones no matter how far away, when medical care can prolong our life and make us so much more able to enjoy life, when for so many the sheer drudgery of life has been replaced with the freedom to choose what they will do, when we have raised the standard of living to levels unimaginable to our forebears…why is it that so many are so unhappy?
I know this has been said before, but:
What Kristine said.
What is with this meanness? Not you, Soyde, I mean the general tone of judging.
I wish all men would get at least one kidney stone in their life. My husband stopped referring to me as “a basket case in labor” when he got one. (I was all “breathe, honey, you can do this” he was all “shutup.”)
I agree with the opening post, we need to become more spiritually self reliant; however, I’m with Janey, we, especially women, have a huge load of “shoulds”–when you are constantly laboring under the idea that you haven’t accomplished everything every day, it’s easy to get depressed.
It’s also easy to judge when you haven’t experienced the illness, the depression. People who have been there aren’t so quick to jump on the bandwagon castigating.
Great topic. Some particularly good points: JKS, Audrey. Thank you.
This issue is sufficiently complex that you could have a whole blog dedicated to this topic. Just a couple of comments:
Janey,
I agree fully with the idea that doing things in itself doesn’t bring happiness. There is no list of actions that bring happiness. It’s being the right that brings peace, and the actions come naturally from that.
However, this does not follow: You state
A: “We get too focused on all the good things we should be doing.â€
And imply that it naturally leads to
B: “We start expecting a quid pro quo of good feelings to go with all our good things.â€
Which leads to negative effects, and thus the implication that A is bad.
There is no relationship between your A and B. An equivalent example would be
A: We go to church and hear a talk saying that pornography is wrong.
B: That causes us to start thinking and then dwelling in pornography.
Therefore, we shouldn’t talk about pornography in church.
You can’t be too good. Being good will lead to A and lead away from B. If someone is leaning towards B it is because they are not good enough, not because they are too good. Focusing too much on good actions might lead to B if one’s heart is in the wrong place. But the solution then is not to reduce focuse on right actions but to increase focus on having our hearts in the right place, or “being good”.
There are no good arguments on behalf of decreasing our focus on being good. (Which I believe claims of “we should focus more on grace†sometimes are.)
Soyde,
“why is it that so many are so unhappy?â€
D&C 121: 35-37. Exchange the word “happiness†for “priesthoodâ€. I believe it works the same.
I maintain that depression is much more a physical than an emotional condition. It has emotional symptoms, sure, and can be caused by emotionally traumatic things (such as abuse, divorce, death of a loved one, etc.) but I think that the reason it is so prevalent in industrialized countries is that we are so extremely sedentary. There is something to Hinckley’s feeling that he needed to get back to work in the face of his wife’s death. That said, I know I haven’t gotten the hang of this myself and am a bit skeptical of the idea that throwing yourself into work will solve your problems.
Minerva,
You answer your problem with your last statement.
If being sedentary were the cause of depression, then being active would be the cure. But there are many depressed people who are active.
Similarly, if depression were a physical/biological problem, we would probably have a physical/biological solution by now, but we don’t.
Also, if depression were a physical/biological problem then emotional/psychological solutions wouldn’t work, which they often do.
Eric said: “But there are many depressed people who are active.”
This is not very common, though. Depressed people generally do not have the energy or motivation to be very active. There are definitely people with psychological and emotional problems who are active, people with low self worth who are active, etc. But depression generally renders you rather unproductive.
“Similarly, if depression were a physical/biological problem, we would probably have a physical/biological solution by now, but we don’t.”
This is very silly. We don’t have solutions to a lot of physical/biological problems (cancer? AIDS?). And besides, a lot of people have been benefited by antidepressants, so I think there actually has been some headway in biological solutions.
“Also, if depression were a physical/biological problem then emotional/psychological solutions wouldn’t work, which they often do.”
For real debilitating depression, psychological solutions are not used on their own. Work with psychologists is beneficial and probably necessary for those with depression, but it cannot give someone energy who has none.
Kristine (#36), why does your comment seem so judgmental and self-righteous about others’ tendencies to be judgmental and self-righteous? Just wondering.
Eric,
We do have physical/biological solutions: there are lots and lots of medications that work well for depression, and many studies suggest that therapy alone is less efficacious for severe depression than a combination of therapy and medication. (And that medication alone seems to work better than therapy alone).
The major problem with this discussion is that the original post conflates depression and ordinary discouragement and sadness. They are not at all the same animal. Discouragement and sadness yield to spiritual effort; depression often doesn’t.
Kristine,
Exactly. Depression is something entirely different from discouragement and sadness. That’s what I’ve been trying to get at. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
I remember reading that talk while on my mission in the spring and summer of 1975. It is a great talk and had a profound and positive impact on my life.
I do think we need to be careful to distinguish between people who are whining and people who are really sick and suffering. I work with lots of mental health providers and so have a decent layman’s familiarity with clinical depression. I have also worked with ward members suffering from clinical depression and there is no doubt that they truly suffer in a hellish way others have difficulty understanding. I know these good people would love to stop their bouts of depression once and for all. And it is instructive that the Church Handbook of Instructions notes that often people who commit suicide (most of whom are depressed) may not be responsible for their actions.
Yes, there are whiners, probably more than there are really sick people. But the sick ones deserve our compassion.
Kristine said, “Discouragement and sadness yield to spiritual effort; depression often doesn’t.â€
I agree 100% that depression is different than sadness, but I think the sources are exactly the opposite. Again, this is a complicated issue, but very briefly:
There are many things that lead to sadness. Hard times, personal problems, and so forth. There are also many biological causes of sadness. A deficiency of either noradrenaline or central serotonin in the brain both lead to feeling “down†or sad. But none of these things necessarily lead to depression, as there are many people with all of the above who are not depressed.
My theory is that sadness + pride/self-pity = depression. This explains why medications that increase serotonin uptake to the brain have been shown to reduce depression – because it’s reducing the sadness. This also explains why therapy sometimes works – because it’s not a wholly biological problem. It also explains why therapy frequently does not work – because the therapy only works if the person chooses to change, and people usually choose not to change.
People are often upset by this idea because of many reasons. One, it places responsibility on the individual, and that’s only going to make most people even more depressed. It also causes some people to be less sympathetic towards depressed people because hey, it’s their own fault anyways. I fully agree that both of these issues are highly unfortunate, and should be addressed and dealt with as much sensitivity as possible. But these concerns do not discount the theory in itself.
Eric,
What is the basis of your theory?
Eric, why would you say that life events cause sadness, but there’s a biological mechanism for reducing sadness? The fact is that lots of people are sad, but people with well-regulated brain chemistry manage sadness well, while people with malfunctioning brain chemistry tend either not to manage legitimate sadness well, or be depressed despite not having any overt reason to be sad. To state it in your (somewhat reductive) equation form: sadness + biological disturbance= depression. Selective serotonin uptake inhibitors don’t reduce sadness; they merely make it possible to respond to sadness in a “normal” way.
There are plenty of proud people out there who never get depressed because they’re not biologically predisposed to respond to sadness that way; I can’t see any reason why you would accuse people of pride because of the way the chemical receptors in their brain function.
In my previous posts I did not mean to imply that everyone who is depressed and unhappy is so because of a want of character or strong will. There are obviously some people who are clinically depressed who have some sort of physiological problem and can be helped by medication.
However, it does seem to me that there are many who who are psychologically dependent, and who agonize too much over what are essentially trivial problems (or even serious ones, and refuse to do anything about them). As I remember Elder Packer’s talk, he mentioned someone who came in week after week to complain to the bishop, until the bishop refused to talk to him/her until the person had done what they had agreed he/she would do.
Perhaps it is all about chemical imbalance. But I don’t think so. This life is about free will, and we can choose what we do. As Victor Frankl (who survived the Auschwitz and the Holocaust) put it: “Nothing in the world can take from me the freedom to choose how I will react to what happens to me.” And he saw in real life the statement from Nietsche: “He who has a why to live can bear with almost any how.”
Eric,
I do not want to presume to make assumptions about your experience, but your theory seems to have been created by someone who has never had depression. Am I correct in assuming you have never experienced depression? I can tell you that it is very distressing for someone who is ailing to hear that this ailment is supposedly caused by pride and self pity. This is precisely the attitude that keeps people from seeking treatment when they need it.
I repeat my earlier assertion that whereas sadness may accompany depression, I have found (from personal experience) the chief debilitating symptoms to be apathy, sleep problems, inability to concentrate or think clearly, lack of energy, and lack of ambition or motivation. I have experienced periods of sadness and self pity in my life as well, and they are very different from depression. I am not saying that I am devoid of pride; I wouldn’t be human if I were. But I think I’m correct in saying that my pride really has very little to do with my depression, except that pride possibly kept me from seeking treatment when I needed it because I thought I should be able to handle things alone.
“Am I correct in assuming you have never experienced depression?â€
Minerva,
LOL. It is, in fact, quite the opposite. Quite extremely the opposite. I didn’t want to admit to my own experiences because I didn’t want to be accused of relying on personal anecdotal experience and generalizing from it. Or for being spiteful about my own experiences and trying to cast blame on others. I don’t believe that either is the case. I’ve done a lot of research on the subject, and my thoughts come from that. I was trying to be objective about it.
Kristine,
I must confess I don’t fully understand what you are saying. My best attempt to respond:
“why would you say that life events cause sadness, but there’s a biological mechanism for reducing sadness?â€
Because both life events as well as neurochemical imbalances can cause sad feelings. The biological mechanism for reducing sadness only works in cases where there is a biological problem.
“There are plenty of proud people out there who never get depressed because they’re not biologically predisposed to respond to sadness that wayâ€
There are plenty of proud people out there who never get depressed because they are not filled with the deep melancholic feelings that come from a neurochemical imbalance, yes. Depression requires heavy melancholic feelings from one source or another, combined with a volitional attitude of self-pity.
Viktor Frankl’s discoveries were landmark. They proved that depression is not simply a state of extreme sorrow and distress, but ultimately a result of a choice to see one’s life and the world in a certain way. And I don’t believe that biological conditions determine the way in which we choose to respond to our feelings or to the world around us. Chemicals determine the way we feel, but we choose how we respond to those feelings. And it’s that choice that brings about depression.
I am convinced that someone can be filled with heavy feelings of melancholy that result from neurochemical imbalances, and then be further saddened by difficult life events on top of that, and still be happy because of a choice to fully and completely love the neighbor as the self, to be wholly other-centered. Hell is not a destination, but a condition of internal being. Likewise, so is Heaven.
My thoughts in general are influenced by a number of sources. One of which, clearly, is Frankl.
And please believe no accusations are held within my beliefs, just a desperate search for the answer. I have never intended to accuse any but myself. But if we refuse to look at certain possibilities because of the potential of accusational implications, then we will never find the truth. Doctors do not ignore the fact that someone has been smoking when looking for a cause for lung-cancer, I see no reason why we should.
It is a difficult idea, I’m aware. Believe me, I am fully aware. There is perhaps no single more horrifying idea in all the world when you’re depressed. There have been times when I would have preferred someone tell me that my entire family was just massacred than tell me what I have said above. And I am convinced that simply telling depressed people point blank what I have just said does absolutely no good; usually only harm. Because of this I almost never speak of these things the way I have and already regret having done so here.
I do believe that we need to develop better therapy techniques that help people realize these things on their own. I believe that there are some already. I sustain wholeheartedly the efforts of a number of theorists on the matter, particularly The Arbinger Institute, founded on the theories of Terry Warner, and who charge lots of money for their services, unfortunately. But there are now a good number of counselors and psychologists who practice therapy from this perspective. And I recommend Warner’s Bonds That Make Us Free first and foremost to anyone who is depressed.
Finally, I think this all explains why the most haunting, most frightening, most disturbing verse in all of scripture came during the one time, I believe, that Joseph got depressed.
“The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?â€
The savior had every reason in the world to submit to self-pity, but he didn’t. I do not comprehend how, but he didn’t. By choosing to respond to our comparatively miniscule problems and minuscule chemical imbalances with self-pity, we are saying, in essence, that our sufferings are greater than Christ’s. Are we greater than he?
Here’s my theory: indifference + apathy/no tact=comment 47. And now people who are depressed are guilty of feeling they’re greater than Christ. That thought ought to cheer them up in no time. It’s so depressing, I can’t go on. I have to stop reading and go feel sorry for myself.
SeptimusH,
Fair enough. I understand where you’re coming from completely. And to a large extent, I agree.
To more fully respond to DavidH,
My ideas are heavily grounded in the Other-centered philosophies of Kierkegaard, Levinas and Martin Buber, and as synthesized by Terry Warner. These guys are philosophers but I think their ideas go a long ways in psychology. In fact, I’m now reading a book on Levinas and psychology (which actually includes a great essay from Jim Faulconer of T&S. Small world.)
But many psychologists and therapists have brought these ideas in as well. I agree wholeheartedly with the work of Daniel K. Judd, Terrance Olson, and Richard Williams, all professors at BYU. It appears that Other-centered models of therapy are still somewhat limited to the BYU world, but I think it will expand.
So as not to tarnish the reputation of any of the above men, none of them have described the issue exactly as I have above – though some are very close. But then, if I were going to present the model in a paper, I would not do it as I’ve done it here either.
Eric – I read the same theory you’re discussing in the book “How to Win over Depression” by Reverend Tim LaHaye. (LaHaye co-authored the Left Behind series of books.) His formula was something like anger + resentment = depression, or something like that.
He had only briefly experienced depression personally, but had worked for years with depressed parishioners. The gist of his idea is that there is anger and resentment involved in depression. Yes, there are chemical reasons too, but two emotions that are present are anger and resentment over an identifiable situation or event. Often, the anger is completely justifiable, such as the anger experienced by an abuse victim. He encouraged parishioners to turn to God to help them let go of their anger and resentment. Once the anger began lessening, the depression began lessening too.
He said that people who refused to work on anger and resentment didn’t get better. I think maybe there were some whose depression wasn’t linked with anger and resentment, so maybe his book doesn’t apply to all who suffer from depression.
I read it while I was depressed, and I was furious at his suggestion. Then I took a long hard look at myself and realized he was right. It’s hard to let go of that anger and resentment (or pride and self-pity as you called it). First, I had to identify it, and that took looking a lot deeper into my issues than I wanted to go. But it’s helped.
I hesitate to apply this to everyone who has had depression, because I’m hardly a universal example. But it helped me to realize that God would help me get rid of my anger, even if my depression was here to stay. Depression without anger is really quite pleasant, compared to the angry depression I’d been experiencing before. 😉
Janey,
You make a very important point: “God would help me get rid of my anger, even if my depression was here to stay. Depression without anger is really quite pleasant, compared to the angry depression I’d been experiencing before.” This suggests that depression is often accompanied by but ultimately independent of anger/resentment/self-pity. I fully believe this and have experienced this difference.
Haven’t several posted about The Bonds That Make Us Free, I think Terry Warner wrote it or was involved. It’s a good book.
Cognitive therapy has helped me to reprogram my negative thinking, to some extent. It’s certainly possible.
This dormant thread caught my eye because it is the source of the current “Featured Comment”. Then, today, while I was waiting to listen to Michael Whiting’s BYU Forum address, I was forced to listen to the two coeds seated behind me pontificating on how those who feel the need to take medication for depression just don’t have as strong testimonies of Jesus Christ as they themselves do. I’ve skimmed through the comments here, and several of them remind me of that discussion I heard this morning.
I’d encourage all of you to read (or reread) the article “Easing the Burdens of Mental Illness” in the October 2001 issue of the Ensign. I’m glad my loved ones haven’t felt limited to taking the Christian Science approach to dealing with gall bladder attacks, shingles, diabetes, broken limbs, skin cancer, hypothyroidism, etc., and I’m similarly glad that those I love who have suffered from mental illness have been able to take advantage of the benefits of modern medicine.
Nat Whilk,
Perhaps in skimming the comments you didn’t have a chance to read # 13, 14, 23, 26 (including Elder Packer quote), 32, and 33, all of which seem to me to recognize clearly that in many cases therapy and/or medication can definitely be valuable resources in dealing with depression. Soyde’s follow up post #50 clarifies what he was getting at in his original post, and includes the following sentence, “In my previous posts I did not mean to imply that everyone who is depressed and unhappy is so because of a want of character or strong will. There are obviously some people who are clinically depressed who have some sort of physiological problem and can be helped by medication.”
“I am convinced that someone can be filled with heavy feelings of melancholy that result from neurochemical imbalances, and then be further saddened by difficult life events on top of that, and still be happy because of a choice to fully and completely love the neighbor as the self, to be wholly other-centered.”
My belief that there is a biological componant in mental health is because PMS, post partum and Graves Disease all have mental health symptoms like depression, irritability, anxiety. Biology clearly influences mental health.
Take PMS, for instance. Every day of my life I make all the correct choices, have gratitude, service, no self pity, etc. Yet, sometimes all my good intentions seem to fail and I become unhappy at certain times….as we all do. Yet if one were to chart my unhappy times they would be grouped during certain times.
Depression isn’t defined as just a biological state. But the biological componants enter into it.
Soyde,
When you restate your question, why are we still unhappy despite all the improvements in the world, I would say that it is the way mortality is. THe whole choice that Eve and Adam made. We left the Garden of Eden and entered a world where we would have pain, sorrow, and hard work. It is our mortality that makes us susceptible (not sure how to spell that) to feelings of sadness.
No matter what circumstance you encounter, there are always worse things that someone has had to bear. Yet it doesn’t change the fact that your own struggle is difficult. I can’t deny the pain of one tragedy simply because it is smaller than another.
The Lord gives us our lot in life. Some get a life of ease and riches. But there is still much struggle and growth to be had there. Some get a life of pain and turmoil. ANd still plenty of opportunity for peace and happiness.
I think God fully expects us to experience the range of mortal feelings yet he does not give us each the same experience. And I think he expects us to learn the same types of truths despite our varied circumstances.
Re #59:
I did notice some of the comments you refer to, RoAnn, but, of course, my claim that there were several comments of a certain type is hardly called into question by the existence of some comments not of that type. Furthermore, recognition that therapy and/or medication can be valuable is not the same as recognition that medication can be valuable. It seems to be easier for people to acknowledge a place for the former than for the latter.
By the way, has anyone else heard Susan Easton Black speak about George Albert Smith’s years of depression as an Apostle?
I acknowledge a place for the latter.
It did, however, take a lot to persuade myself that medication was at least trying. The first hurdle was getting over the fact that people shouldn’t need drugs to get through the day. I truly believed that if I just tried harder, I could conquer all.
Even after I got past the appearance of failure/weakness that using medication would mean, I had another hurdle. Side effects.
But, as many people with health problems can tell you, just because there is treatment doesn’t mean that it is a perfect cure. Chemotherapy is an obvious example. Medication for depression, or other mental health issues, is usually not a perfect cure.
If only there was one pill that easily cured each illness. But that is not the case. So, with any health problem, you have to take a look at the available choices. Weigh the pros and cons, and do what you think is the best course of action.
Prozac kept me alive and somewhat sane after my son’s suicide.
I wish the church would be more open about George Albert’s Smith’s problems. It might help some people to think they are not freaks.
Sometimes we cling to something just because we are not believed. Once somebody says, “I felt that way,” we relax and let it go.
I read George Albert Smith’s biography. A friend recommended it to me when I mentioned I was having trouble with depression. IIRC, he struggled with one episode for about four years, while he was an Apostle. The description sounded like fibromyalgia, in my opinion.
I also remember an incident it related in which one of his daughters, who was involved in the General Primary Presidency or Board, came to his office and told him about a conflict that was occurring. He got so nervous after this conversation, he had to go home for the rest of the day.
It was wonderful to see that God can still use us in our weakness.