The election is over and we will have 4 more years of President Obama, a Democrat Senate and a Republican House. Let’s pray that they can all meet in the actual middle and work together to stabilize our economy and promote freedom, more than social issues. If they fix the economy, great. If they run it off the cliff, they can’t blame the conservative Mormons for it.
As for Mitt Romney, I want to thank him for the Mormon Moment he has given us. He ran a vigorous, but honest campaign. He showed the importance of family, faith and freedom. His efforts caused a softening of people’s hearts towards Mormonism, as Billy and Franklin Graham and many others stepped up to support him.
In my own city of Indianapolis, because of Mitt’s Mormon Moment, I was invited to speak at a local Catholic Church men’s group about the LDS Church. My wife and I were cordially greeted, as we discussed the Church and answered some challenging questions. They said we had the largest crowd the men’s group has ever had, and they look forward to seeing the inside of our temple when it is finished in 2014.
More people know about the LDS Church and Joseph Smith now, for good or evil, than ever before. We have been forced out of obscurity and darkness, and into the light. This change has not just been here, but worldwide, as people everywhere have discussed Mitt’s Mormon Moment.
While the big moment will soon fade, there will still be opportunities for some time for us to make smaller Mormon moments in our own communities and areas. We must decide whether we will lapse back into obscurity, or if the Church will continue in the light we have been walking in for the last while.
Now, we can discuss politics a little less, and speak of spiritual things a lot more to our neighbors, friends and acquaintances. We can show them that the gospel has solutions and answers to life, the universe and everything.
Then, sometime further down the road, when the United States of America does collapse from sin and narcissism, the LDS Church, already out of obscurity, will be ready with solutions that will save those who wish to be saved, as we build a Zion for the righteous remnant of America.
Thanks Mitt.
Good thoughts Rame. I am actually quite optimistic and in some ways thankful. Divided government lately has been better for bringing smaller government. I am also glad we won’t have to face four years of people hatin’ on Mormons because a Mormon is president.
+1
This idea that we have a divided government with Obama is demonstratively false. So long as Executive Orders are legal, the President of any party can circumvent Congress. I have more to say about the calapse of The Republic, but I am too depressed.
I’d love some of that optimism, Geoff. I think as a nation we’re at one of those spots in the BoM where the righteous prayed and did their part, but were unfortunately positioned in life on the downward side of the pride cycle. Sucks to be us. The BoM is actually the most tragic book I’ve ever read. I can’t help but think we’re now living that tragedy.
Jettboy, relax. God is in control. Our responsibility is to have faith and believe, and allow God to work his miracles. From destruction comes Creation, and that is what our scriptures teach us regarding the establishment of Zion. The stone cut out of the mountain without hands (the church and gospel), will continue to grow and until it destroys the nations of the earth. D&C 45 tells us that Zion will be a refuge from the mobs and dangers.
As LDS, we only need to make sure that we are living as God would have us live. We need only be prepared, and then we do not have to fear.
This morning, I was talking to a non-LDS friend, who is discouraged about the election results. I explained to him about provident living, preparation, food storage, etc. I also explained that if the nation ever does collapse, like the USSR did, then the Mormons will help organize the righteous into places of safe and good government.
If President Obama chooses to lead from the middle, he may have a successful presidency (and good for him, if he does). However, If he continues to choose to lead from the left, then the eventual collapse may just be the thing we need to establish Zion. If that is the case, then Mitt Romney will be a good choice for leading the Council of 50 or whatever other representative government we then choose.
God knows what is happening. He has let the world know that Mormonism exists and is a force for good. Now if/when the nation collapses, Mormonism will be able to step forward and the elders of Israel will build Zion with the help of many other righteous people. That will be an awesome day!
“Now if/when the nation collapses, Mormonism will be able to step forward and the elders of Israel will build Zion with the help of many other righteous people. That will be an awesome day!”
Really? It will be an “awesome day” when our “nation collapses?” It almost sounds as if you expect (or hope) this will happen so that the church can somehow save the nation. This is nonsense fringe hysteria, ala “white horse prophecy,” at its worse. We’re not living in some dystopian novel.
Ram, nice how you worked the HGG reference in there.
SFW, the +1 shorthand brings to mind Newspeak, from Orwell’s 1984: “Double-plus good!”
Amen. I’m in awe at the profound sacrifice he made to do this – I can’t imagine anyone desiring POTUS at this juncture in our history. What a great and good man he is, a perfect person to have stepped forward in this moment. I’ve been reading about how the Lord inspires people with appropriate desires to fulfill his purposes for them. I’m so glad Mitt was willing to be inspired. As I’ve also written today, this is a glorious time for the gospel.
@Tossman
So, if I understand you correctly, do you mean that if you prayed/voted for an Obama victory you are not “righteous”? Does voting conservative = “righteousness” now?
@ rameumptom
Do you really think it is appropriate to begin having apocalyptic fantasies about the “eventual collapse” of the US not even 24 hours after the election?
Seriously, people. Listen to yourselves. Okay, you don’t like Obama. I get that. But you’re not exactly coming across as cool, rational, clear, critical thinkers with whom others can discuss the issues with an cooperate with when your response to loosing an election is to begin contemplating how (God forbid) the United States is going to collapse and Mitt Romney would be a great leader of the Council of Fifty.
The very idea is, to be frank, repugnant and rather arrogant.
Well, for what it’s worth, here’s one Mormon hoping President Obama is successful, and hoping that we’ll never see the day where Mitt Romney is leading the Council of Fifty.
Josh, do you believe this world and the USA will last forever? That is the dystopian myth most Americans have.
I believe in what the scriptures state. They say there will be a destruction – which will be a tragic and sad event. However, from the ashes rise the Phoenix. Will Christ’s Second Coming not be both a “great and terrible day”? For the wicked, it will be terrible. For the righteous, it means we will be rescued from living in this telestial realm.
If our nation no longer is a promised land, nor a land of righteous people, then it needs to collapse. I am not a nationalist. I do love freedom and the Constitution and our country. But if the government and people turn away from the principles it was founded on and from righteousness, then it is better for us to have the nation collapse. The USSR gave stability to people. But it gave no freedom of speech nor of religion. Had it not collapsed, the LDS Church and other Christian faiths would not have had the opportunity to enter in and bless people’s lives.
If the USA becomes just another has been nation on its way to ignominy and Jaredite level sin, then I choose to let it collapse so we can let the Lord’s work move forward.
I do hope and pray that President Obama and Congress will choose righteously and wisely on how to guide our nation. If they lead us to Christ and the blessings of the promised land, then that will be fantastic. However, if they choose to lead us down another path, then I would just as soon we get the chance to truly establish Zion. Zion is, after all, a people, and not just an individual.
Ok, thank you. I needed to hear this!
Stephen Smooth, its great that your side won. I can see how that might make you think all is well and perhaps better than ever. The truth of the matter is that us conservatives (and you don’t have to be Mormon. I have been reading many conservative blog on the win and they feel the same way regardless of religion) do feel that this is the beginning of the end. You can call it “irrational” all you want. It won’t be the first time the opposition has used that term for what we with all our heart believe.
josh p,
Both the Bible and Book of Mormon predict a world wide societal collapse and Armageddon before the 2nd coming.
It also behooves us to re-read what Moses, Isaiah, and all the Book of Mormon prohets said are the consequences of a people turning against God: National destruction.
As a nation, as a whole, is the US turning toward God or away from him? Collectively, are we doing better at keeping God’s commandments, or worse? Are we collectively turning to sin, tolerating, approving, and even advocating sin, or are we turning away from sin?
What sins are no longer sins in our national consciosness? (I’m thinking sexual sins, homosexuality, abortion, children out of wedlock are major ones.) And do those things qualify as “calling evil good” ?
What are the scriptural warnings about the direction we, as a nation, are headed?
@Stephen
No. I’m saying that those of us who sincerely believe that reelecting Obama was the worst possible move we could have made are unfortunately out of luck. Kinda tough to have no recourse.
Stephen Smoot, almost 6 trillion dollars in additional national debt in under 4 years is irrational hysteria.
And the 16 trillion total is just the tip of the iceberg. Unfunded liabilities (present value of future obligations), for things like government employee/military pensions, medicare and SS for babyboomers, is a hidden but real debt that brings the total several times higher.
Within the next four years, foreigners will stop loaning us money, and the administration will have to print money, and/or confiscate private investments.
After they stop loaning us money, we still have to pay back what is owed, further depleting American held assets.
An interesting speculation of what may happen is a movie from the 70’s or 80’s called “Rollover.”
Brother Mitt did well enough in his campaign, but I think far more thanks are owed him for the sterling qualities of his private life and his work as a friend, a neighbor, and priesthood holder.
I am not one to say when the nation will collapse. It could be next year or 100 years from now. I am saying that we are moving in that direction, and have been for several decades now.
According to Harold Bloom, the primary reason for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t because they had homosexuals, but because of inhospitality (a major sin in ancient Middle East). Sexual sin was being forced upon everyone, including visitors.
When our nation begins to force sin upon the people, then we will be ripe for destruction. When secret combinations are everywhere because of the Internet and television, and people embrace those secret combinations, then we will be ripe for destruction.
Adam G, thanks for your comment. I agree that Mitt’s personal life and example represented the Church and Christ well.
Confession: I’m glad Obama won. I really think he will help the economy more (but I will refrain from arguing that here). But the truth is, I am ALSO sad that Romney lost. I think the Mormon Moment he brought the nation was an absolute blessing. Slowly people are realizing that if you can’t say bad things about Jews and Blacks, then you can’t say those things about Mormons either. Evangelicals came out in huge numbers showing that being Mormon is not the worst thing in the world (hint, being a democrat is 🙂 ).
Romney wasn’t my ideal candidate, and he isn’t my ideal poster child for Mormonism, but I, like rameumptom, am very glad he ran.
DavidF, spoken like a gentleman. However- and not to hijack the thread or anything- but I am really curious how you think Obama will help the economy more than Mitt would have.
He ran a vigorous, but “honest” campaign.
Ha Ha Ha hee hee hee! Ha ha ha hhah hahahahahahhahahhaha.
thank you. that’s the most I’ve laughed in days.
Ha ha ha ha. LOL.
Alex, I suggest you add to the discussion by doing more than just mock. If you disagree with a statement I make, then use logic and persuasion to explain. Mockery only demeans you, and not the thinkers here.
There are a few that have said they are glad Obama won. Fine. I hope for all of us that Pres Obama will be more successful in his second term than in his first, and that he will find a way to reach out to all Americans (and Congress).
As for an honest campaign, it basically was. I didn’t see Mitt claiming the president had killed anyone, committed a felony, etc. That he may flip-flop some is no different than Pres Obama flip-flopping – and I do not consider either dishonest for occasionally doing so. Politics is a strange realm where compromise and ideology makes people do and say different things sometimes in order to make what they feel is progress. Candidate Obama attacked deficits and debt, and President Obama created trillions in debt, for example (partially because of extreme liberals in Congress on a spending spree, partially to manage unfunded mandates left over by Bush).
Anyway, I suggest you add to the discussion, instead of reducing it to the level of mockery and ignorance. And if that is all you are capable of doing, then please leave the discussion.
Tossman, here are a few points. I won’t give detailed explanations though. So you may (probably will) disagree, but hopefully you’ll see that they are not necessarily bad arguments to make.
-Bush tried to save the economy by cutting the marginal tax rate (the infamous Bush era tax cuts). Most economists agree they didn’t really work (I think it was a worthy experiment though). Romney wanted to cut them even further. I don’t see how this would have done anything other than add to the deficit.
– Romney wanted to eliminate the territorial tax which would give businnesses incentives to export jobs since they could make more money by putting them in foreign markets
– Romney supported an unnecessary increase to the defense budge.
– Romney folk believe that investors drive the economy. I disagree. I think consumers drive the economy (economists will debate this back and forth). Cuts to capital gains and dividends help investors but do not help most consumers (generally poorer people who don’t directly benefit from those cuts) to consume more.
Obama avoids these problems which I think is good (I’m not a big Obama supporter, I just think he is a safer option for the economy).
The truth is, Obama is actually quite fiscally conservative. The conservative media tried to paint him as a radical socialist, but it simply isn’t true (note, these were the same people who told us that Romney would win by a landslide, clearly they are living in their own world). For more information see: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2012/11/obama_the_moderate_republican_what_the_2012_election_should_teach_the_gop.html
The stock market has been the highest its been since 2009 (not counting this morning. There are a lot of investors throwing big tantrums, but they’ll cut it out when they decide they want to make money again) and unemployment has steadily declined since 2010. Maybe I am wrong, and Romney could have done the nation a better job. But I don’t think so. Still, I am glad he ran for office for the reasons I stated previously.
DavidF, I do disagree with most of your list, but it’s nice to discuss this with some degree of sanity.
I think what it comes down to for me is a confirmation of what my gut has been telling me for some time: that America as I knew it– one that valued faith, life, and self-reliance– is gone. Probably forever. The first Obama admin escalated and promoted the trend toward social justice, collective salvation, and an unabashed welfare state. My heart is broken.
While the Lord strongly condemns sin of kinds, the collapse of the Nephite society was brought about by a willful disregard of the poor, a puffing up of pride, hearts set upon material goods, and the idea that an increase in wealth is both a sign of personal righteousness and the ultimate good.
Caring for the poor and turning away from personal wealth are the hallmarks of a Zion society. A personal effort is required and expected, but when private efforts to help cannot keep up, what are we to do? I get that a lot of conservatives feel that taxes are legalized robbery, but even the scriptures say to Pay Unto Caesar.
So tell me, please, how the richest nation in the history of the world can allow such poverty? There just isn’t enough private charity to fill the need. Are we to just sit back and let things stay the way they are?
No one has answered Bookman’s questions about good vs. evil and the issues. If you took Bookman’s questions and had people pick a side based on their answers which side would lean more Dem? Premarital sex? Non-marital familes? Abortion? Homosexuality? Etc.etc.
Now I realize Latter-day Saints can and do disagree about the level of involvement the government should have in these issues. But one party is rapidly sanitizing these sins and not just making them legal, but making them positive.
That’s a problem for the state of America. Unlike many, I have no hope for world peace or the long term success of America unless the people repent and turn to Christ.
Sorry, but your nationalist or relativist philosophies will not turn me away from the revealed word of God in this matter, both ancient and modern.
Ben, I agree with your concern for the poor. I feel it can best be handled on the local level: states and communities, with less fraud and waste. I knew an economist in the early 1990s who explained to Congress that if we just paid every family on welfare at the time an annual check for $20,000, we would save about $400 billion a year. That is a lot of waste, and it has only gotten worse over the last 20 years.
The federal government (both Republicans and Democrats) have kicked the can down the road on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. They are now within a decade from going bankrupt to the tune of $50-100 Trillion. They need to be fixed, which means cutting (because GDP cannot handle such taxation) from the poor and from bureaucracy. Yet, we keep getting brinksmanship in DC, which ends in kicking the can further down the road. We are heading towards Greece, and Germany will not be there to bail us out. Then, there will be no safety net for the poor.
That is what I worry about. True charity means using the funds available to actually help people to the best we can, while prioritizing expenditures. We do not have a Zion state, and so will never quite rid ourselves of the poor, as people remain selfish. In fact, many of our poor are now selfish, insisting on entitlements that they feel they’ve somehow earned, instead of humbly coming forth with a grateful heart for what they may receive.
So, the federal program is actually turning rich people and poor people into selfish beings, while bankrupting our nation.
As a pragmatic libertarian, I see the real need to return such programs to the local states, and severely reduce federal government, as it is going to bring us all to ruin.
But then, I expect that out of those ruins, we will bring our food storage to our bishops and establish Zion. So, maybe the Desolation we create may bring about a new Creation/Zion.
Cheer up Tossman. Our nation survived a civil war, the anti-authority movement of the 60’s, the cold war, and even Jimmy Carter. I actually believe we are more moral as a society than we have ever been. That goes for most the world, really.
And on the real bright side, 4 more years of Obama gives the republican party a chance to reshape its image. It really needs it. There are too many alienated conservatives out there driven out by the extremists. The nice thing is, the part has several outstanding prospects future candidates who could do immense good for the party (in my mind, Christie and Huntsman, some might disagree on the latter). Again, I’m not a huge Obama fan and there are a number of things I would like a moderate republican to fix and I think the future, in that regard, looks quite hopeful.
He was a very good candidate, not someone I had to hold my nose to vote for — with the exception of his not quite all-in position on abortion.
Tossman – we are more moral
Monson – the moral fabric of society is decaying
the church and culture are going in a different directions
Moses – would thhay all men were prophets and the lord would put his spirit upon them
me – amen
Oops that should be davidf not tossman!
Hi Chris,
I disagree wholeheartedly. To some extent I could generalize what I’m about to say to other cultures, but I’ll focus on America. Today we are more aware of gender inequality than ever before. We are striving to eliminate racial inequalities. I read an article in 2009 showing that teen pregnancies and abortions are (were then) at historic lows. More than ever before nation-states care about their poor (you may disagree with socialism, but the good intentions of it are relatively new in human history). We think nations are more violent today than they used to be (i.e. increased wars and conflicts), but the exact opposite is true. We just have better information about what actually is going on (note: I can provide links to all of these claims). Domestic abuse rates have fallen over the last 20 years. Religious tolerance is better than it ever has been in western history (if you call these secular attacks on “Christmas” bad, think about the post-reformation era, or early colonial America and how Catholics in Rhode Island were treated, or Mormons in Missouri). The mentally disabled are looked after better than ever. I could go on.
If your definition for morality only factors in drug use and sex between unmarried people, then perhaps you could make a good point, but in a lot of really important ways we are becoming more sensitive to the ways in which people were unduly harmed. You couldn’t pick a better age in history to live in terms of morality. And actually, even on the topic of sex between unmarried people, I think there may be good reason to believe that we are no worse today than in the 19th century, we just are more willing to talk about it and not hide it. I could try to explain that if you are interested.
I want to thank Mitt Romney and his entire family and all that worked so hard for R/R to win. I really blieve we needed him desperately for our country and prayed so hard but I know Our Father in Heaven will be with us and bless the Romneys for all their sacrifices. May God Bless You all and Thank you forever!!!
Honest question: Did Mitt really run an honest campaign? I have to say that my Mormon bias was rooting for him to represent us well – even though I disagreed with him on policy. I was really hoping for him to rise above the usual political dishonesty. To my sincere surprise, he turned out to be even more dishonest than the average politician. I actually think he could have done a great job as an economic innovator and I think at the end of the day he’s a good decent man. So, it really puzzles me that he felt the need to wade in the mud. He really didn’t have to.
CTJ
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t think Romney is Mormonism’s ideal poster child, but then again, neither am I. The fact is, he was really good for a the Church in a number of ways, not the least of which is his impervious-to-be-trashed background as a husband and father.
I’m going to miss Mitt. He would have made a great president. Not as great as Obama, but both men are brilliant and good. I feel bad for Mitt, because historically, he will be considered a “loser” like Kerry, and will always be referred to as a cautionary tale by historians and pundits.
This is really unfortunate, because the fact that Mitt almost won against the Obama machine is really a miracle, and with so much unpopularity from the base of his party for the years leading up to it. He is a man of extraordinary ambition, discipline, and determination. That someone like him could be considered a failure is the tragedy of democratic system which forces men of extraordinary character and talent to prostitute themselves front of a clueless and ruthless mob, who always think of themselves as superior to their rulers.
Romney wanted to rule over the Gentiles, and tried to play their game. But he who lives by the sword shall perish by the sword. He who digs a pit for his neighbor for gain shall fall into the pit himself. Politics is all about digging pits, and Romney fell into his own pit. Should a child of the covenant try seek power and influence among the gentiles? Yes, according to the parable of the unjust steward. We are to make friends of the mammon of unrighteousness. I applaud Mitt the effort, and for bringing our church out of obscurity, and into a positive light (at least towards people of a conservative bent).
I will watch with eagerness to see what Mitt will do next. This is a man no one can put down for long.
DavidF, I guess my point is that you can call Romney a lot of things – managerially brilliant, great leader, excellent family man, unparalleled in his civic/community service. You can even call him more qualified to to lead this country. What you can’t accuse him of, is running an honest campaign. At the end of the day, Mormons are like everyone else when it comes to honesty in the public sphere – party affiliation, ideology and even personal grudges trump all else.
The saddest part about Mitt’s campaign is the horrible position he took on immigration. Irrational and unworkable and cruel and unnecessary. And what makes it even sadder is that I don’t think Mitt believes what he said on the subject. Is that “dishonest”? I don’t know. But it seems unprincipled to take a position that you don’t believe in.
Thomas Jefferson once stated, on things of style, go with the flow. On things of substance, stand firm.
I’m thinking that for Romney (or Obama), as with many politicians or businessmen or LDS bishops, one has a list of things that are at the core, which cannot or should not be changed. Then there are the other things, which may be important to some, but not seem as tied to substance or core, where a person may go with the flow.
This does not make a person dishonest, but perhaps flexible or even pragmatic. The problem lies in determining where principles end and policies begin, as to where one needs to be flexible and where one needs to be firm.
Well put Rameumptom. I agree.
Thanks Rame for your words. I didn’t know you and your wife had so many great opportunites to share the gospel in your community. I think Mitt and Ann Romney are such stand up people and I’m so glad they represented us well. I’m sad that he didn’t win, but I am trying to take comfort in the teachings of the gospel and trying to have faith that we’ll pull thru. I’m just buying more food storage in the mean time.